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Effects of initiation


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#21 Nikki

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:00 PM

Is it possible for a witch to practice only spellcraft and not have to worry about other things like spirit work, opening doorways, et cetera? Yes, I think so.

 

When I say spellcraft I mean: consciously harnessing various available energies to achieve a specific outcome in physical reality, achieved by using intent, magically affiliated ingredients, gestures, words, ritualistic elements, symbols, or other methods which help express intent, direction, and meaning.

 

Hmmm, consciously harnessing various available energies, can and does open doors. I think using energy that isn't soley yours to power spells is a different skill set. This is where one can unwittingly enter unexpected and unwanted waters. Ignorance is not bliss in this cases. Personal responsibility is a cornerstone in life and witchcraft for  good reason. 

 

 

Or, is even a novice witch inevitably bound to take on a little more water than they initially intended? See above.

 

Would you try to warn a novice witch of these issues (if you believe they exist), or would you let them figure it out on their own? Depends if I care, but generally, for me..Yes, I would try.

 

 

I think I would not try to warn upfront. I would wait for them to ask questions. I agree to disagree. Some don't know enough to ask the questions that might save them trouble to begin with. 


Edited by Nikki, 26 August 2014 - 09:02 PM.

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#22 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:23 PM

I suppose if I am aware of what the mixing of two chemicals will produce I will warn a newbie when they are thinking about it.  The issue though is that to me warning is not encouraging / discouraging the action only appraising them of what could / will happen.  I warn my children & grand-children about grabbing a hot plate or hot surface but in the end they often have to do it before they will connect the two concepts together.  But because I warned they approach the hot plate / surface with a bit of hesitation so they never get badly burnt before they can pull their hands away.


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#23 SachaX

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:04 PM

I think I would not try to warn upfront. I would wait for them to ask questions. I agree to disagree. Some don't know enough to ask the questions that might save them trouble to begin with. 

 

 

===

 

Ahh, but the greatest teacher is experience. Just like monsnoleedra mentioned you can warn all you want, but it comes a time when when the person will just have to experience it for their self before "it sinks in".

 

Would you be where you are at today if someone came along and stopped you?

Or are we still agreeing to disagree? Either way is fine with me.

 

I was just hoping to further flesh out this idea.


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#24 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:19 PM

===

 

Ahh, but the greatest teacher is experience. Just like monsnoleedra mentioned you can warn all you want, but it comes a time when when the person will just have to experience it for their self before "it sinks in".

 

Would you be where you are at today if someone came along and stopped you?

Or are we still agreeing to disagree? Either way is fine with me.

 

I was just hoping to further flesh out this idea.

 

 

For me personally I think your crossing over into the initiated vs uninitiated realm of teaching and guidance.  Under initiation experience is guided and controlled to a degree so things are experienced in a logical order.  Uninitiated is always haphazard and many times seems to get the cart in front of the horse in my opinion.


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#25 SachaX

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:44 PM

For me personally I think your crossing over into the initiated vs uninitiated realm of teaching and guidance.  Under initiation experience is guided and controlled to a degree so things are experienced in a logical order.  Uninitiated is always haphazard and many times seems to get the cart in front of the horse in my opinion.

 

---

 

But wouldn't the unitiated have less of a reason to further education on said subject matter? Gosh, I think I am re-asking the original OP's question!


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Posted 27 August 2014 - 12:22 AM

---

 

But wouldn't the unitiated have less of a reason to further education on said subject matter? Gosh, I think I am re-asking the original OP's question!

 

 

Not sure about less reason but I suppose less likely hood of being introduced to other aspects or similar concepts.  Not much encouragement to explore or discover something you've never been told about or introduced to.  Look at the RHP / LHP thread and the differences in where ideas and concepts originated.  Not much reason to look beyond the typical Christian good / bad perspective if you've never heard of anything different. 


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#27 Nikki

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 01:10 AM

Experience is the Toughest teacher. She gives you the TEST first and the LESSON later. 

 

Each 'teacher' has their own principles and motives behind how they instruct their students.

 

I place value on presenting possible outcomes and consequences. Some choose to learn the 'hard way'. That's life. 

 

Making a mistake after having been 'warned' feels differently than knowing someone sat back and let it happen while danger lurked ahead.  

 

Again, motives vary. 


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I Love you as certain Dark Things are to be Loved,
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#28 Wexler

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 01:31 AM

Not sure about less reason but I suppose less likely hood of being introduced to other aspects or similar concepts.  Not much encouragement to explore or discover something you've never been told about or introduced to.  Look at the RHP / LHP thread and the differences in where ideas and concepts originated.  Not much reason to look beyond the typical Christian good / bad perspective if you've never heard of anything different. 

 

I think this is a great point.

 

As I may have said in an earlier post, I think some people who get in to witchcraft view it from a very narrow lens, and therefore cannot independently comprehend what dangers or doorways may lay before them.

 

I certainly walked in to witchcraft with a very distorted view of what it was, and it took a nice set of screw-ups for me to figure out that I actually had no idea what I was doing. It was like I thought I was being a great swimmer by doggy-paddling in the deep end of the pool, but unbeknownst to me the pool was connected to a vast and dark ocean I could not see for my own short-sightedness. It did not take very much effort for me to find myself in open water. Granted, this was very much my fault, because I did not actually bother to educate myself about what I was getting in to. I was so assured that reality stopped where my blinders began that I didn't even consider there could be more than I could see.


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#29 Gyreleaf

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 11:36 AM

What if by warning someone of something you taint there view of it from the start and bias them to your own experiences. We don't all have the same experiences even if walking the same path. If you go into these experiences with preconceived ideas of what might or could or should happen it colours the experience before it even begins.

 

I think warning in cases where you believe there is a real danger is the right thing to do but that's a line that needs to be walked delicately. Exploring issues like these with divination can often prove to be a useful endeavour.


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#30 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 01:37 PM

What if by warning someone of something you taint there view of it from the start and bias them to your own experiences. We don't all have the same experiences even if walking the same path. If you go into these experiences with preconceived ideas of what might or could or should happen it colours the experience before it even begins.

 

I think warning in cases where you believe there is a real danger is the right thing to do but that's a line that needs to be walked delicately. Exploring issues like these with divination can often prove to be a useful endeavour.

 

 

Depends on who is divining.  I find most if not all sort of delude themselves when they devine for their own future.  Always reading in the most favorable outcome or only seeing that which they desire.  In that regard it's sort of like the old adage of a Doctor is always his own worse patient.


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#31 Nikki

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 01:53 PM

I certainly walked in to witchcraft with a very distorted view of what it was, and it took a nice set of screw-ups for me to figure out that I actually had no idea what I was doing. It was like I thought I was being a great swimmer by doggy-paddling in the deep end of the pool, but unbeknownst to me the pool was connected to a vast and dark ocean I could not see for my own short-sightedness. It did not take very much effort for me to find myself in open water. Granted, this was very much my fault, because I did not actually bother to educate myself about what I was getting in to. I was so assured that reality stopped where my blinders began that I didn't even consider there could be more than I could see.

 

Wow, that's a mouthful right there and elegantly put, too. 

 

Who knows, Wex, maybe someone will read this thread (or other threads here) and realize craft is not what they thought it was and reconsider their 'dreamy' ideals. 

 

Even 'educating' oneself can be dangerous with all the crap out there making craft seem so safe and wonderful. It's easy for some to drink the Kool-aid.

 

This is where personal Experience shared can be useful to someone newer, if they are inclined to consider someone else's truth. If not, oh well. 

 

Some will sink, some will swim, others will fear the water and never get wet. Again, their choice. 

 

 

 

Monsno -- Yes, I agree with you about self-delusinal divining tendencies...lol. 


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The difference between Medicine and Poison is the Dose. :oil-bottle:
I Love you as certain Dark Things are to be Loved,
In Secret, Between the Shadow and the Soul.
- Pablo Neruda


#32 Gyreleaf

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 02:32 PM

I am not a fan of divining the future at least not through most divination methods. Usually its through things that keep cropping up in my life and patterns that emerge.

 

Anyways, I was talking about divination surrounding the whole thing in general. It can be useful for exploring your own motives and reasons behind the advice you might want to give someone and perhaps whether you should or not.


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#33 RoseRed

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 02:59 PM

===

 

Ahh, but the greatest teacher is experience. Just like monsnoleedra mentioned you can warn all you want, but it comes a time when when the person will just have to experience it for their self before "it sinks in".

 

Would you be where you are at today if someone came along and stopped you?

Or are we still agreeing to disagree? Either way is fine with me.

 

I was just hoping to further flesh out this idea.

 

I don't understand how giving someone a warning of the possible dangers ahead equals stopping said person. 

 

If you were about to dive head first into the deep end of a toxic waste dump thinking it was a chlorinated swimming pool, it would be completely irresponsible of me to not give a warning - especially if it's someone I care for. 

 

Telling my daughter, when she was 3, that the hot glue gun is actually hot, is giving a warning.  It didn't stop her from testing it herself when I looked the other way but it did cause her to be cautious enough to poke at it with her finger (and a small blister) instead of grabbing it with her whole hand and needing a trip to the doctor's office for the size of the burn she could've had.

 

I see no difference when it comes to warnings of a magical nature.

 

 

 

---

 

But wouldn't the unitiated have less of a reason to further education on said subject matter? Gosh, I think I am re-asking the original OP's question!

 

Actually, I think they have more of a reason.  There is no one laying their schooling out in front of them.

 

 

What if by warning someone of something you taint there view of it from the start and bias them to your own experiences. We don't all have the same experiences even if walking the same path. If you go into these experiences with preconceived ideas of what might or could or should happen it colours the experience before it even begins.

 

I think warning in cases where you believe there is a real danger is the right thing to do but that's a line that needs to be walked delicately. Exploring issues like these with divination can often prove to be a useful endeavour.

 

And this is one of the things that I like about forums.  Someone asks a question and they can get multiple answers from differing points of view.

 

Experience is the Toughest teacher. She gives you the TEST first and the LESSON later. 

 

Each 'teacher' has their own principles and motives behind how they instruct their students.

 

I place value on presenting possible outcomes and consequences. Some choose to learn the 'hard way'. That's life. 

 

Making a mistake after having been 'warned' feels differently than knowing someone sat back and let it happen while danger lurked ahead.  

 

Again, motives vary. 

 

I completely agree.


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#34 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 03:11 PM

I am not a fan of divining the future at least not through most divination methods. Usually its through things that keep cropping up in my life and patterns that emerge.

 

Anyways, I was talking about divination surrounding the whole thing in general. It can be useful for exploring your own motives and reasons behind the advice you might want to give someone and perhaps whether you should or not.

 

 

This sounds more like your referring to synchronicity than divination of any sort.  The observation and judging of events and occurrences that seem to form a repetitive pattern or sequence that becomes noticeable due to the frequency of their occurrence.  It's an interesting theory and has gained a lot of support in many fields but I often wonder is it really an indicator of something or just our mental classification of things and a greater awareness of them.  Figure if one is more open to seeing things then there will be a greater likelyhood of seeing things that are cyclic or repetitive in nature.  The same as the deeper one delves into occultist things the more occult like things they will begin to notice or equate to an occult like perspective.  Doesn't truly mean more occult things are happening just the person is becoming more aware of the occult / paranormal influences in everyday life in my opinion. 


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#35 Gyreleaf

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 03:28 PM

I didn't say my future reading was divination, I said I don't like using divination for it. The patterns I notice are all kinds of things, including symbols and words that crop up. Experience has shown that they are indicative of the forces playing in my life in those moments. Its an intuitive thing that doesn't work well with conscious deliberation, its like I get a feeling and insight of what's coming. Through experience I found the source was the patterns of things that I unconsciously was taking note of. With practice you can learn to take more note of these things. This is getting way off topic.

 

Anyways,  I thought I said it clear that I was not actually talking about future reading but using divination, like tarot or runes, to explore our own motives and reasons behind the advice you might want to give someone and perhaps whether you should or not. A self exploration into the topic.


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#36 RoseRed

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 03:31 PM

I've never been any good at using divination for exploring the Inner Self.  I've seen a lot of people talk about it but it's never worked like that for me.


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#37 Gyreleaf

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 03:39 PM

It never used to work for me either. But when my boyfriend died and I was suffering through my grief the readings I did just ended up reflecting my inner thoughts and feelings and  since then I can do it when I want. I lay out a spread to represent me and whatever I am exploring  and just take it from there. But yes as with most divination theres a chance of self deception, but there is that feeling that comes over you when your doing a true reading, its hard to describe. Kinda like a trance state and your talking and interpreting without thinking about it.


Edited by Gyreleaf, 27 August 2014 - 03:40 PM.

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#38 RoseRed

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:38 PM

Oh, yes, I know that feeling that you're talking about.

 

Usually, when I need to do a self reading when I'm in the middle of something I'll ask a friend to do it for me.  I know from previous experience that it's too hard to do an objective reading while lacking objectivity.


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