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Effects of initiation


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#1 Wexler

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 09:21 AM

I would like to pose a hypothetical question.

 

If someone has natural potential to be a witch, is it possible for them to practice only spellcrafting without getting themselves in any deeper? Or, will they find that once they accept the magic-practitioner's mantle, their path may progress beyond the scope they desired?

 

I think that if someone who has natural potential gets involved in magic, it will probably start opening more things up for them whether they want it to or not. What do you think?


Edited by Wexler, 24 August 2014 - 09:25 AM.

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#2 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 10:22 AM

I think it's quite possible. In my humble opinion it all comes down to personal choices. It is more likely that it's harder for someone who has the natural potential to be a witch to not move past a certain "place"? Sure, I think that's a fair assessment. Bc my brain is shot I haven't slept in two days, forgive me for this crude analogy- but I kind of liken it drugs (at least for the sake of this discussion). Can you do a milder drug (like marijuana for instance) your entire life and never touch another "hard" drug? Absolutely (providing you're not an addict that is). Can you do a harder drug (like coke) recreationally your entire life w/o touching any other type of drug? Yep. Can the use of them make you more likely to lose your inhibitions and/or fear, leading you to try an even harder drug (like meth or heroin) that's probably gonna kill you or have you committed? Yep- but you still have a choice. You don't have go further down the rabbit hole to enjoy your life, but it's a bit more likely you're gonna get lost in the rabbit hole if you continue to make certain choices.

 

I hope that remotely makes sense... I think it's time for bed...lol


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#3 RoseRed

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 01:44 PM

Or, will they find that once they accept the magic-practitioner's mantle, their path may progress beyond the scope they desired?

 

 

Pretty much.

 

But what does that have to do with initiation?


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#4 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 01:53 PM

I'm confused here Wex, you titled it about initiation but it has nothing to do with initiation.  Sort of changes the whole mental and psychological frame of reference.

 

As far as what your asking I think it depends upon the practitioner and their own desires.  They might only go so far and decide not to go any further.  Yet they also could advance to a point discover it no longer satisfies thier need and decide to advance further.  All dependent upon the practitioner and their own internal motivations and needs.

 

But what your question doesn't address is how one defines spellcrafting?  Fully advanced regalia, structure and components in Ceremonial / High Magics is as much spellcrafting as simple candle magics or wishcrafting by writing upon a paper and releasing it to the universe to fulfill.  But simple candle magics does not mean one will progress to Ceremonial magics.


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#5 SachaX

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:30 PM

I think many aspects are at play here. From someone's background, to their experiences in life, to what core beliefs they have and how they want others to perceive them, to their personality, to people they meet along the way, to what they've read and studied, to what they are accepting to believe.

 

Some people will stay with simple spells and never advance while others will seek more. I guess it all depends on the individual person. Once initiated into the world of magick doesn't mean everyone is going to take up residency there and delve deeper.


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#6 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:00 PM

I think many aspects are at play here. From someone's background, to their experiences in life, to what core beliefs they have and how they want others to perceive them, to their personality, to people they meet along the way, to what they've read and studied, to what they are accepting to believe.

 

Some people will stay with simple spells and never advance while others will seek more. I guess it all depends on the individual person. Once initiated into the world of magick doesn't mean everyone is going to take up residency there and delve deeper.

 

Bolded mine.

 

If a person is initiated then I highly doubt they will stop for to be initiated requires more than that, especially when there usually are stages of progression for initiation.  I think a lot of people confuse exposure / introduction to the magical world as being initiated into it.  to be initiated is to go deeper and deeper into it and broaden ones knowledge and perspective.  My personal opinion only but I think the confusion between initiation and exposure / introduction is due to the many self-initiation practices that have arisen and try to pass themselves off as being initiated.  Sadly especially present in Neo-Wicca and New Age practices.


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#7 SachaX

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:05 PM

Aye, being INITIATED into the arts is different than INTRODUCTION as is explained in ceremonial magic.

The title of the post confused me for a moment when I read it too, but I went ahead and used the OP's description after I figured out what the question was.


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#8 Wexler

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:45 PM

Sorry about the title, I wrote it when I was dog tired and about to go to sleep so I suppose I didn't think it through very well!

 

I was trying to refer to initiating your path, not formal initiation. Whenever someone decides that they do want to be a witch and they begin practicing, whether or not they formally dedicate or have a ceremonial initiation.

 

It is my thinking that once you get started, it would be difficult to totally control the progression of your path. I think the problem may be less that you get interested and always want more, but that even just focusing on spellcasting may bring more in to your life than you intended in the first place.


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#9 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 05:19 PM

Sorry about the title, I wrote it when I was dog tired and about to go to sleep so I suppose I didn't think it through very well!

 

I was trying to refer to initiating your path, not formal initiation. Whenever someone decides that they do want to be a witch and they begin practicing, whether or not they formally dedicate or have a ceremonial initiation.

 

It is my thinking that once you get started, it would be difficult to totally control the progression of your path. I think the problem may be less that you get interested and always want more, but that even just focusing on spellcasting may bring more in to your life than you intended in the first place.

 

 

Initiations where not just for ceremonial practices but fell into many categories.  Blood initiations, lineage initiations, divinity initiations, death initiations to name just a few but each has differing qualifiers and conditions.

 

Figure even witchcraft is a practice, craft or way of acting and responding so can you really say there is a point where one initiates their start upon a pathway?  In many capacities you say a prayer in church and believe the prayer will come true you've started witchcraft.  Does that mean you will continue on that pathway or will drift to something other than that magical pathway?  You cook a meal and put your heart into the preparation, your a kitchen witch and probably utilize a lot of the same herbs, spices and beliefs regardless of whether you call yourself a witch or not.  Every time you write down a recipe and detail the components your practicing a form of witchcraft and spellwork.

 

So your back to how do you define the term and what it entails?  My wife is a kitchen witch and does little beyond that facet though she does occasionally.  I am a hedgerider / green witch though I don't do much beyond that aspect.  Spellcrafting is a very diluted term or corrupted depending upon ones perspective for nearly all we do is spell crafting of one form or another and the depth we descend to or advance to depends upon to many things the least of which is saying we are magical practitioners.


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#10 Gyreleaf

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 05:22 PM

I get what you mean Wexler. Its like when you first start to work with spirits and at some point certain doors seem to open up that might not be able to be closed again. Also you don't exactly have a choice of who or what your local spirits are and what they get up to. Personally I think if a person sticks to just spells and doesn't engage in the spiritual side of things they might be ok, but sometimes those damn doors have a habit of springing open at the slightest whiff of a witch. 

 

Personally I think location matters far more than is talked about. Some areas are just so spiritually active that its hard not to have it effect you and your practice. Other areas, like where I live, have to be stirred up to get good activity going on. Also some areas that have a lot of practitioners and witchcraft culture can cause a kind of syncing effect where people end up walking similar paths due to the local currents without them even realising it.

 

Witchcraft to me is more in the doing then in the thinking but naturally the more you do it the more you will think about it. Given enough time and lots of workings that thinking will permeate into all aspects of your life and become a part of your decision making process whether you want it or not, its a natural process.  

 

The more you walk the crooked path the deeper into the woods you go.


Edited by Gyreleaf, 24 August 2014 - 05:24 PM.

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#11 Michele

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 06:28 PM

I think that practicing magic is practicing spellwork. And its like practicing any other practical action - cooking, sewing, what-have-you. One can practice the art of cooking and become a great cook and make lovely suppers for their family. And take it no further. But the very interest itself will often them lead them to explore the deeper aspects of cooking... the plants and meats involved, organic vs. non-organic, natural, vegaterian, the ethnics and cultures that birthed certain ways of cooking, etc.... but they don't have to ever take it any further than simply grilling a decent hamburger for the hubby and kids. It really depends on where their personal interests take them.

 


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#12 bewitchingredhead

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 04:53 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^

Great explanation Michele!


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#13 RoseRed

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 11:14 AM

I think spell craft is only one aspect of magic, albeit an important one.


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#14 isabel

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:11 PM

I'd guess quite a lot of people with a natural inclination towards witchcraft would also have a considerable natural curiosity so that might lead some people to go deeper than they might have initially intended. Maybe part of the beauty of 'the crooked path' is that we can't always see round the corner and considering we can get dragged deeper than intended into mundane everyday events I can't imagine witchcraft would be any different. That said, a really stubborn person with a natural tendency to becoming a witch might have a bit more control over where the path leads them. So I'd have to agree that personality would have a huge part to play.
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#15 Nikki

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 05:41 PM

Wex, are you asking if a witch cannot control how far or deep she goes on the Path? (If so, what does that say about a witch's personal power, I wonder) 

 

 

I don't think there's much control over what gifts (or curses. Thanks, RR) are bestowed but, what you do with them is your call. 

 

In many ways, I think the Path is a series of bend and breaks and folks in the road... Where you decide to go is also up to you. Not going any farther is another option. 

 

There's choice available, me thinks. (in my experience, anyway)


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#16 Wexler

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 12:15 AM

Sorry everyone, I hurt my wrist knitting (lol very hardcore I know) so I can't type much.

 

Thank you for all your answers.

 

I am trying to understand the things that a novice witch should be concerned about, or be aware of. One of the things I have recently come to believe is this:

 

If you have it in you to be a witch, once you start practicing witchcraft with intent (like, a conscious decision to practice), a new world opens up to you. I believe that people who do not come from a magical background or understand witchcraft in depth may not comprehend the changes that could occur in their life once they start practicing. I believe some people put magic in a box, so to speak, and do not understand that it can permeate your life (and even your being) in ways you may never expect.

 

Does a witch have a certain level of control over his/her own path? I believe so, maybe even a great deal of control. But even so, a beginner may start opening doors that they never expected or knew existed. Perhaps no matter how careful or meticulous you are, some things are bound to come in to your life if you start practicing.

 

I know what you are about to say, Monsno - what about people who practice naturally, with no conscious intent? I don't know much about that. Maybe they have dealt with these open doorways their entire lives. Although it is a good topic for discussion I am afraid I can't comment on that.

 

My question is, which I think everyone has figured out (sorry again for the initial confusion), do you agree or disagree? Is it possible for a witch to practice only spellcraft and not have to worry about other things like spirit work, opening doorways, et cetera? Or, is even a novice witch inevitably bound to take on a little more water than they initially intended?

 

When I say spellcraft I mean: consciously harnessing various available energies to achieve a specific outcome in physical reality, achieved by using intent, magically affiliated ingredients, gestures, words, ritualistic elements, symbols, or other methods which help express intent, direction, and meaning. I am afraid that is the best I can do for a definition... I can try to explain further if anyone needs more detail

 

Edit: here is a follow-up question. Would you try to warn a novice witch of these issues (if you believe they exist), or would you let them figure it out on their own?


Edited by Wexler, 26 August 2014 - 12:16 AM.

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#17 RoseRed

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:53 AM

Would saying 'there are doors within yourself that once opened can never be completely closed again' count?


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#18 Wexler

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:53 AM

Lol, yeah I suppose that counts.


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'Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.'

'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.'

 

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#19 isabel

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:41 AM

Hi again. Got to agree with RoseRed. To be honest I can't say it was much fun in the beginning. But then I started as teenager without much common sense or a strong sense of self (lack of personal power probably did come into play) which led me to attempting to pretend it was all just a crazy phase in my life. After a time I realised cutting myself off made me feel more fractured and I let myself slowly open up. It's funny as I was thinking about this today whilst walking my dog in season (anyone with experience of this will know just how much fun this isn't) on a narrow path that I can't see round the corner. From experience I now know that when we run into another dog it's best to double back to a wider part of the path and let it pass. For me, I'd say this illustrates my personal experience with witchcraft. I've had to double back or not go further because I know it wouldn't be a good idea for me personally. Everyone has different limits so would probably advise someone to first know themselves and their limits. Not sure if this is useful, but hey.
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#20 SachaX

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 10:59 AM

Edit: here is a follow-up question. Would you try to warn a novice witch of these issues (if you believe they exist), or would you let them figure it out on their own?

 

----

 

I think I would not try to warn upfront. I would wait for them to ask questions.


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