Jump to content

"Laws or ethics"


NiamhMorganaAstra

Recommended Posts

Long story short, I am once again drawing from my Wiccan days. I searched the forum and couldn't find anything, on this particular topic, so I thought why the hell not. Ok, so keeping in mind that I WAS Wiccan, was being the emphasis here; I wanted others opinions on laws or ethics. I know each of us is different. But a lot of (even used to be) Wiccans, will quote the three fold law at me, if they find out that I am doing a souring jar. Does this still hold clout with Traditional Witchcraft? I personally don't believe the whole 3 fold law, but I do believe if you are really sinister, that karma will pay you back eventually. So what are your thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope. I think I can safely say most (if not all) of us don't believe in the threefold law.
I believe that when you fuck with the wrong people, they will return the favour. 
Evoke or summon something you can't control and have no idea how to work with, it will get back at you more than just three times.
Try to curse a witch and she will send it right back at you with a lilttle present of her own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yea that's about right, i used to be in that mindset when i was starting out, but now i just believe you reap what you sow. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest monsnoleedra

Long story short, I am once again drawing from my Wiccan days. I searched the forum and couldn't find anything, on this particular topic, so I thought why the hell not. Ok, so keeping in mind that I WAS Wiccan, was being the emphasis here; I wanted others opinions on laws or ethics. I know each of us is different. But a lot of (even used to be) Wiccans, will quote the three fold law at me, if they find out that I am doing a souring jar. Does this still hold clout with Traditional Witchcraft? I personally don't believe the whole 3 fold law, but I do believe if you are really sinister, that karma will pay you back eventually. So what are your thoughts?

 

 

I don't quote the Wiccan three fold law though I may mention the law of cause and effect or law of return.  Nor do I reference Karma as I do not believe in its western usage but its eastern usage and practice.  Though to be honest I think one has to clarify how they define the three fold law.  While not a Wiccan an initiated Wiccan did teach me to them it was three fold was that an action could come back upwards of three different ways.  Physical return, ie harm, pain, arrest, etc, psychological return, usually self imposed such as regret, worry, etc or Mental conflict or any combination of the three.  So for instance you steal which causes a physical result when you get caught and punished, a psychological feedback as your morality and ethics conflict and you suffer from that then a mental aspect via self punishment that is more mental induced than psychological caused.   Not saying that is the only way just the way I was taught to understand the three fold law.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe in consequences to actions.

 

I would hope that anyone that is down right wicked for no good reason had that come back to bite them in the ass somehow but that's usually not how this world works sadly. Usually the assholes just keep on living and the nice people get walked all over. I find the idea of karma funny. It always comes up as something like "karma is a bitch" and doing something bad will result in something bad happening in return. Rarely do you ever hear about it working the other way. I do nice things all the time and rarely have the favor returned in some way. Oh well.

 

I think the 3 fold law if ridiculous and don't believe in it at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dislike the western idea of Karma. They completely abuse what karma really is in eastern regions. Karma is not a bitch, karma just is.

 

 

As a man himself sows, so he himself reaps; no man inherits the good or evil act of another man. The fruit is of the same quality as the action.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I can really understand the desire that some people have for the Three-Fold Law to be true. Witchcraft is fucking scary, you know? Especially I think for us suburbanites who have never really been in danger. I know I have had an easy life.

 

I think a lot of people are introduced to witchcraft out of curiosity, or a pull, and the first things they find are the great fun stuff. And then after a few weeks or months, when they find more about the nasty side, it's frightening. You mean, someone could hex me? Someone could make me get in to a car accident? Someone could attack my mind? Someone could send vicious spirits in to my house? There are bad spirits who will hurt me for no reason but to feed? Egads - this isn't beautiful and spiritual and mystic, this is upsetting.

 

There are two easy 'outs': "Bad things won't come to you if you stay in the white light," and, "witches can't hurt you because if they do, they will be hurt three times as worse." Isn't that handy to take care of our fears.

 

Cause and effect are real. Splashback is real. Casting a spell badly and having it slingshot back in to your face is real. Consequences for your actions are real; so is payment being exacted. Poking a witch and having him turn around and punch you in the eye is real. Spirits (maybe gods as well?) coming after you for retribution is real. But I do not believe there is a cosmic abacus in the sky that watches you and clacks your karma back and forth for every waking and sleeping deed you do. If I take my dog on an extra-long walk, I won't get handed a gift card by a stranger for a free latte at Starbucks. That isn't how the universe works. If it was, the world would be perfect by now.

 

As a young adult, I am still trying to find my place in the world. A lot of times people question my actions or decisions (in fact, I'm not sure that will ever end). It took me a while to figure out what to say to that. Finally, I hit on it: "I accepted responsibility for my actions before I started." I shouldn't be drinking a soda this late at night, you say? I accepted the consequences of my actions before I opened it. I shouldn't be hexing people because the universe will give me a spanking? I accept responsibility and will pay the price for my actions, whatever they may be. Lines like this work well for me; they may work well for you also.

 

[if you are dealing with really lite/fluff people, just tell them "your reality isn't my reality and both our beliefs are valid" and that should shut them up].

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not a fan of the concept of karma or the laws of return. It isn't the principle I object to but the structured idea of cause and effect. I think there is certainly a logic to saying that if you put one type of energy into the world you will get that type of energy back - if I'm horrible to everybody I meet I can hardly be surprised when people are horrid in return. But I don't think it is as simple as if I do x then y. I think of it more like cause and effect on a quantum level - nobody really knows how it works but  the overall results can be observed to some degree. Myy view would be that I can affect my own "karma" by the way I behave but that no single isolated incident or action will bounce back with a specific opposite result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't believe in Karma or the 3-fold BS either. 

 

MY Ethics and Personal Responsibility work for me. 

 

I do not believe there is a cosmic abacus in the sky that watches you and clacks your karma back and forth for every waking and sleeping deed you do.  

 

^^Another great one-liner worthy of the Wexler Hall of Fame !!^^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dislike the western idea of Karma. They completely abuse what karma really is in eastern regions. Karma is not a bitch, karma just is.

 

 

 

Thank you for point out the "Western" idea of Karma. Because in all actuality, it's nothing of the sort. People have recently taken a more than 10,000 year old concept and completely fucked up the meaning of the word. What makes me laugh is that most of the people who use it this way are typically Christians who do not believe in reincarnation compared to the religion from when it came.

I'm not a fan of the concept of karma or the laws of return. It isn't the principle I object to but the structured idea of cause and effect. I think there is certainly a logic to saying that if you put one type of energy into the world you will get that type of energy back - if I'm horrible to everybody I meet I can hardly be surprised when people are horrid in return. But I don't think it is as simple as if I do x then y. I think of it more like cause and effect on a quantum level - nobody really knows how it works but  the overall results can be observed to some degree. Myy view would be that I can affect my own "karma" by the way I behave but that no single isolated incident or action will bounce back with a specific opposite result.

 

This!!

I don't believe in Karma or the 3-fold BS either. 

 

MY Ethics and Personal Responsibility work for me. 

 

I do not believe there is a cosmic abacus in the sky that watches you and clacks your karma back and forth for every waking and sleeping deed you do.  

 

^^Another great one-liner worthy of the Wexler Hall of Fame !!^^

 

Damn that's two good quotes from today already that I want to borrow! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awesome post, Wex.

You should start collecting and saving these one liners.  You could write a book with them some day.  They're great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awesome post, Wex.

You should start collecting and saving these one liners.  You could write a book with them some day.  They're great.

 

They are i always enjoy reading Wexler's posts  :smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your responses. You all make very valid points, and at least I know I am not alone on certain aspects of this topic. Also, thank you Wexler for your FABULOUS one liners! If you don't mind, I'd like to use them, in response to when I am being "Wiccan" thumped. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"How To Be A Snarky 20-Something Witchlet, Volume 1"

 

:rofl:

 

Niamh, I hope you use and enjoy... Here is a handy back-up plan: if the person starts explaining, point-by-point, why they are right and you are wrong, just nod and say, "wow, I never thought of it like that, thank you for teaching me something new" and then absolutely refuse to counter-argue. I have learned that endlessly defending yourself instead of walking away makes it look like you have something to prove. You have nothing to prove. If you accept responsibility for your actions, the concerns of others are nothing but counsel. If their counsel is bad, decline to take part in it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

"I do not believe there is a cosmic abacus in the sky that watches you and clacks your karma back and forth for every waking and sleeping deed you do.  " :clap: 

 

Wait- doesn't St. Peter hold that abacus?

 

It's all the same thing- to control, if you do this... then this will happen.

 With Witchcraft if you do this.... any number of things may happen which will give you the outcome you desire- for a while at least, depending on the magnitude of the problem - it's the fallout along the way that is dificult to see.

 

Which leads me to another Wiccan fallicy( all IMO of course) ; the "harm none" clause- what a joke!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I have read, the 3 fold law was first introduced in 1949 by Gerald Gardner and later publicized and popularized by in 1968 by Raymond Buckland 

 

IOW, it's a fairly recent dogma invented by a couple of people.  Just because someone says it, doesn't make it so.

 

They might as well have invented a dogma abolishing chocolate.

 

I don't pay attention to or follow other people's dogma.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate the idea of the threefold law. It's nothing more than a bastardized version of Eastern karma thrown around by scared fluffies as a means to control the actions of others. 

 

"Don't do this, or the threefold law will get you!" sounds suspiciously like "Don't do that, or you'll go to Hell!"

 

It's the same empty threat as eternal damnation, and its sole purpose is to give people a false sense of control and security so that they don't actually have to learn to protect themselves. 

 

I only ever found one version I could agree with, and that interpretation is 'Whatever you do will in turn affect your body, mind and spirit', and is synonymous with the laws of cause and effect. 

 

I think the Gardnerians have their own interpretation, but whatever it is, it's oath-bound, and from what I can tell nothing like the version pushed by the Bunny crowd. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest monsnoleedra

I think the issue with the three fold law is that parts of it were inner court teachings and designed to cause you to really consider what you wanted to do vice knee jerk actions.  Yet as Wicca became book Wicca and the inner court teachings and mystic aspects were dropped it became the corrupted notion of karmic debt and return with a lot of white light and fluffy happy happy joyful joyful stuff thrown in.

 

I think part to is that the oath bound aspects also applied to taking full and complete responsibility for ones actions and the results / returns of those actions.    It's to my understanding never been about imposing ethics and morality upon another but reminding them of their own ethics / morality and acknowledging those influences upon things and accepting accountability / culpability  for ones actions.  

 

Today's usage almost promoting an in-action against all positions thereby you can lay accountability and culpability on another for not doing something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the issue with the three fold law is that parts of it were inner court teachings and designed to cause you to really consider what you wanted to do vice knee jerk actions.  Yet as Wicca became book Wicca and the inner court teachings and mystic aspects were dropped it became the corrupted notion of karmic debt and return with a lot of white light and fluffy happy happy joyful joyful stuff thrown in.

 

I think part to is that the oath bound aspects also applied to taking full and complete responsibility for ones actions and the results / returns of those actions.    It's to my understanding never been about imposing ethics and morality upon another but reminding them of their own ethics / morality and acknowledging those influences upon things and accepting accountability / culpability  for ones actions.  

 

Today's usage almost promoting an in-action against all positions thereby you can lay accountability and culpability on another for not doing something.

 

The 'consider what you actually want' lesson doesn't have to be learned after someone throws a hex and gets bitchslapped by the universe. The last two serious spells I cast were about protection and self-improvement, and both of them went off without a hitch. Now mind you, I didn't get what I wanted. But I did get exactly what I asked for, and in both situations I really fucked myself over in the long term. So it's not as if you can only ruin your life with bitchy, negative spells. You can take a baseball bat to your life with the most well-intentioned 'White' spells.

 

If the three-fold law was an anecdote about making choices ("imagine what you send out comes back to you three times over. Do you still want to do it?") then I generally agree with the philosophical exercise. Maybe we over-simplify it by thinking in terms of 'good' and 'bad'. Maybe it is a more involved law regarding the intricacies and energies used in your spell, which are never necessarily good or bad. Maybe it can be shorthand for "are you sure you know what your spell is about to do?" or maybe part of the message is also, "don't underestimate your own power, you are about to cause a ripple effect that you may not fully understand." (in that case, I could have really used a good dose of the law when I started out). Personally, I just tell myself, "if you cast for this it's going to happen. What are all the ways it could go wrong and explode in your face?"

 

I also think that some people [*cough*me*cough*] use traditional witchcraft's disregard for this rule as an excuse to do whatever they want without worrying about repercussion. Fortunately, I got over this phase pretty quickly. Everything has a repercussion. Every action you take has a reaction. This does not mean that 'dark' actions create a 'dark' ripple, necessarily. But if you think you can cast however you want without ill-effect towards yourself, I'll see you on the other side when you've finally put your life back together.

 

As a kid, I always wondered what would happen if I had super-powers. As it turns out, there is less world domination and more sitting in traffic thinking about consequences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"don't underestimate your own power, you are about to cause a ripple effect that you may not fully understand."

 

 

 

We can never fully know the consequences of all the ripples.  I do generally try to minimize collateral damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...