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Cursing Unknown Assailants

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#21 Michele

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:06 AM

This is something I lean towards... that you need a specific target. And of course if you don't have one and you do something anyway you will have no way of knowing if it actually worked (but on a psychological level it may make you feel better and get rid of some of the anger). Like doing a get-a-job spell.... if one doesn't have a specific job in mind the target is usually the self (get ME a job) and then the self takes mundane steps backed up by the spell. To me if the craft grew up out of the land and the people who populated it... populations were no where nearly the size they are today. I think there was usually a good idea who did something, and if not a spell could specify as there wasn't the spread of technology there is today. It just makes sense to me that there has to be a specific target.

 

M


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#22 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:23 AM

No...you're targeting through your own property.  One could take the credit card, put it in a nice jar with...tequila or the like, set it on fire.  "May these thieves be burned as they did to me.."

Or justice workings to try to punish and bring them to light.....  This is not an impossible task. 

 

 

To me that wouldn't work.  lets say you have a spouse or significant other and tell them to use your card.  Ops, you just set your curse on them.  Suppose you hand your card to someone to swipe the reader as you pump gas or something.  Ops just passed that curse off again.  Loved ones who you let use it become targeted.  Then when there are issues with your card or account it has to be handled by some employee at some bank / credit union but you've targeted anyone who might have to access it to correct things, load a card, etc.  Sorry the jar spells rely to much upon the stupidity of old witches / vampires who would be compelled to stop and count pieces or subject to what ever might be contained within.

 

A justice spell with no identified target equally unworkable in my opinion.  Bet you'd be pissed when you get a ticket for going over the speed limit but you tied a justice spell to your general energy.  Or better yet when your spouse, friend, sibling or parent gets arrested because you gave them the card to use for something but it triggers out on them.


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#23 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:27 AM

As an aside though I'd wonder about calling upon spirits to seek justice or vengeance for you.  I would assume those same spirits would be the ones you've already asked to watch over and protect you and your interests.  Seem's a bit illogical to ask them to exact justice / revenge for you when they failed to protect you or your own possessions.  If they allowed it to happen then it seems to suggest there is a deeper lesson / experience to be gained from it than simply asking them to do something to appease ones sense of victim-hood.  Granted I base that upon how I work with my allies and such so assume others would do similar with theirs.


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#24 Michele

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:35 AM

... Seem's a bit illogical to ask them to exact justice / revenge for you when they failed to protect you or your own possessions.  If they allowed it to happen then it seems to suggest there is a deeper lesson / experience to be gained from it than simply asking them to do something to appease ones sense of victim-hood. ...

 

That's a good point ...I don't believe spirits are all-powerful and can stop anything and everything but I do believe they can warn if one recognizes the warnings (which is not always easy, lol). And I do believe there has to be a relationship. ANd I think there's a differnece between general protection spells and "spirit friends" or allies, which might make for an interesting discussion.

 

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#25 Izzie

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 12:00 PM

I haven't shredded the cards yet and I've got my fraud emails where you click yes/no & reply to the cc company. Sounds like enough to go on 😈.

It takes a lot to make me mad, this is just one of those things that sets me off.

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#26 Gyreleaf

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 07:29 PM

Where there's a witch there's a way!!!

You already have the basis of a workable link to your target. But you can reinforce it with some work. I would carry this out in the usual setting/atmosphere/ ritual space you normally work in.

Think about the information you already have on them, the amount of money they stole, where they spent it, what they spent it on etc. Write this all down on the right side of a clean piece of paper. Draw a circle around it, these are your current known facts.

Next use this information as fuel for your intuition and perform scrying and divinations. Anything that comes up write it on the left side of the paper and draw a circle around them. These are your intuited "facts".

By now you should have a good feel for the target, keeping your mind on them draw a sigil on the middle of the paper that will represent the target. Circle this overlapping the other two circles. Make it clear that this paper now represents your target, Say some words to that affect and pass it through some incense or whatever methods you usually work with to lend more power to it.

You can now use this paper in your spell work. You could keep note of the sigil and then burn the paper to ash and use the ashes for your workings.

Your spirit allies can help aswell. They may not have protected in the first place because this type of theft is impersonal and no specific ill intent was set specifically at you. But now the spirits know the situation they might be able to provide/get info for you or help you deliver your curse. Where I live there's tradition of sending spirits off to locate enemies and bring back a piece of them for working on.

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#27 Gyreleaf

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 07:42 PM

Sorry the jar spells rely to much upon the stupidity of old witches / vampires who would be compelled to stop and count pieces or subject to what ever might be contained within.


Your talking of completely different type of jar spell to what Aurelian said. There are many different ways of working a jar, for many different purposes each with there own method of action.

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#28 Wexler

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:01 AM

Several months ago my wallet was stolen at a club. I went to my friend's house, made flying devil oil out of cooking oil and red pepper flakes for pizza, and targeted 'the person who stole my wallet' (I don't remember the exact phrasing, but that was about right.)

 

About 90 minutes later, we got a call - the bartender who denied having my wallet apparently had it stashed in his work station and forgot about it when four or five people came around to ask. Apparently he had a change of heart and gave it to the owner.

 

I didn't know who took it, or their names. Didn't stop me from going after the person - perhaps it was only a coincidence that the guy decided to admit he had the wallet, and my delicious pizza oil didn't have anything to do with it.

 

In the end, I wasn't seeking justice - I was trying to make the thief burn with guilt until the situation got too hot and he turned himself in.

 

That being said, people on this website have been able to ascertain astoundingly accurate information about me without my name, photo, or date of birth. I do not believe this information is always necessary to identify, find, or target someone.

 

I think I generally agree with Gyreleaf, and I would approach this situation in the same way that he would.

 

I also appreciate MonSno's thoughts on accidentally winging innocent people with your revenge spell. Did I accidentally hit innocent people with my on-the-fly hex? I don't know, but at the time that was something I was willing to take responsibility for. I was seeking to get my wallet back, an hour of guilty feelings for a few random people is worth that to me. If I already got my wallet back, and I thought the guy should burn a little more - I would not be willing to sacrifice more random people just to get revenge.

 

On the other hand, if I was really pissed off I may try a blind curse without a lot of worry about who might be in harm's way. That's really just up to personal ethics.

 

At the same time, I would take defensive steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. Three breaches in three years is a lot higher than normal - there has to be dirty stores where you are swiping your card, online or offline. The prepaid card idea may work very nicely to help reduce losses in the future.


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#29 Izzie

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 03:27 AM

Several months ago my wallet was stolen at a club. I went to my friend's house, made flying devil oil out of cooking oil and red pepper flakes for pizza, and targeted 'the person who stole my wallet' (I don't remember the exact phrasing, but that was about right.)

 

About 90 minutes later, we got a call - the bartender who denied having my wallet apparently had it stashed in his work station and forgot about it when four or five people came around to ask. Apparently he had a change of heart and gave it to the owner.

 

I didn't know who took it, or their names. Didn't stop me from going after the person - perhaps it was only a coincidence that the guy decided to admit he had the wallet, and my delicious pizza oil didn't have anything to do with it.

 

In the end, I wasn't seeking justice - I was trying to make the thief burn with guilt until the situation got too hot and he turned himself in.

 

That being said, people on this website have been able to ascertain astoundingly accurate information about me without my name, photo, or date of birth. I do not believe this information is always necessary to identify, find, or target someone.

 

I think I generally agree with Gyreleaf, and I would approach this situation in the same way that he would.

 

I also appreciate MonSno's thoughts on accidentally winging innocent people with your revenge spell. Did I accidentally hit innocent people with my on-the-fly hex? I don't know, but at the time that was something I was willing to take responsibility for. I was seeking to get my wallet back, an hour of guilty feelings for a few random people is worth that to me. If I already got my wallet back, and I thought the guy should burn a little more - I would not be willing to sacrifice more random people just to get revenge.

 

On the other hand, if I was really pissed off I may try a blind curse without a lot of worry about who might be in harm's way. That's really just up to personal ethics.

 

At the same time, I would take defensive steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. Three breaches in three years is a lot higher than normal - there has to be dirty stores where you are swiping your card, online or offline. The prepaid card idea may work very nicely to help reduce losses in the future.

 

 

 

Yes, I'm willing to take responsibility when I throw a curse out there, I totally agree with that. I'm being very careful to word it so that I don't unintentionally get innocent people, like the people working retail who didn't know the card was stolen. The wording might be "the person that intentionally stole my credit card".

 

I like the flying devil oil idea...that's awesome. I have some cayenne pepper, it's definitely an idea. I wish I had ghost peppers. Those are so hot that they are used in India to repel elephants. But then again, I'd have to wear gloves and safety glasses to handle them.

 

We buy at reputable places, and use PayPal whenever possible. I don't leave my wallet unattended, and it stays locked up at work. For all I know it could have happened at a restaurant. Although, I got a letter about the Target breach last year, and the cc company said they were aware, etc. I'm liking the prepaid card for online purchases, and considering paying for more stuff in cash. 

 

I made up a batch of protection oil a while back...I can use it to ward my finances. 


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#30 Stacey

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 03:34 AM

I just refuse the new agey slant of how bindings, curses and hex's work and the assumption you can shoot into the dark and have it work.  Sounds to much like a Silver Ravenwolf taught perspective to me.  

 

Never read Silver Ravenwolf so I have no idea what you're implying other than you think that our replies are coming across "new agey". If you have a focus like a bill or card, it's not shooting in the dark. It's going with intuition and allowing your energy or focus to direct the curse where it needs to go. You seem to assume that no witch on here is capable of that.

 

Sorry the jar spells rely to much upon the stupidity of old witches / vampires who would be compelled to stop and count pieces or subject to what ever might be contained within.

 

For some one who seems to like pointing out how wrong other people and their ideas are, you're drawing on lore here. I've never known any witch to stop and count or subject themselves to the jar. You're hardly going to send it to them in the mail or leave it on their doorstep, most jar spells remain in your home, on your property where you can direct the necessary focus toward the target. I don't believe Aurelian was referring to the type of jar spell you're evidently thinking of. 

 

Izzie, it sounds like you have a plan so I wish you much luck and swift resolution with it!


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#31 Moondark

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 04:19 AM

I certainly think you could use one's actions to target them. 

 

Their actions provide a direct link to their identity. You may not be able to say 'Curse Joe Schmoe", or picture Joe Schmoe's face in your head, but you can easily say "Curse the one who stole my credit card!"

 

You know the person's actions, therefore you can use those actions as a link to the person, as long as you're specific enough. Using something physical to represent those actions (such as a poppet) will only aid the working. 

 

It's not just shooting in the dark. It's shooting at someone who, while you can't see them and don't know who they are, is making a hell of a lot of noise. 


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#32 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 10:54 AM

I have to ask how you create a target profile from a scenario where the only facts you know are

 

Three occurrences that have occurred 1 time per year over a three year period

 

Only one example of usage of the stolen card and nothing else to compare usage to.

 

No physical actions that were taken by the OP to terminate the ability to use said card.  Sort of like being robbed by someone with a key to your house then leaving the locks the same and hoping it won't happen again.

 

No physical boundaries that these events are occurring in to define a given zone or area where it will be utilized.

 

Don't even have any sort of data on how the card is being used, frequency of usage, area of usage except for one possible instance that the OP has presented.

 

Sorry its still shooting into the darkness and hoping you'll strike a target.  At worse it's the worse sort of profiling in that one will use assumption and prejudice in assigning characteristics to this perceived thief and how they think he / she is operating.  Funny take some action in the physical and you'd get hammered for assumption and lack of evidence yet within the pagan community today its standard jump to conclusions.

 

Wonder what the odd's are the face will be Mexican considering it occurred on the west coast?  Probably male in that psychologically many do not equate such things to women.  Probably late teens or early 20's with the assumption the data for the card was lifted in some skilled capacity.  Possibly a migrant type person considering the card is only limitedly used for major transactions that cause it to flag out.  As such would suggest someone of some intelligence who uses a series of cards so as not to attract undue attention upon the cards usage.  Yeah lets write a curse or hex against that for it matches the info and is filled with tons of assumption with no factual basis to support it but it looks good.

 

Sorry we used to be called cunning people, wise ones, etc because of many things.  Yet never based upon presumption and acting upon limited or faulty data without seeking clarification and understanding is how I was taught and believe.  

 

Three usages over a three year period is making a lot of noise talk about assumption of facts and personal biases on viewing things.


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#33 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 11:04 AM

Never read Silver Ravenwolf so I have no idea what you're implying other than you think that our replies are coming across "new agey". If you have a focus like a bill or card, it's not shooting in the dark. It's going with intuition and allowing your energy or focus to direct the curse where it needs to go. You seem to assume that no witch on here is capable of that.

 

 

For some one who seems to like pointing out how wrong other people and their ideas are, you're drawing on lore here. I've never known any witch to stop and count or subject themselves to the jar. You're hardly going to send it to them in the mail or leave it on their doorstep, most jar spells remain in your home, on your property where you can direct the necessary focus toward the target. I don't believe Aurelian was referring to the type of jar spell you're evidently thinking of. 

 

Izzie, it sounds like you have a plan so I wish you much luck and swift resolution with it!

 

 

Your right I do like pointing out logical fallacies and arguments.  As far as lore goes most of what you'll do and the energy called upon will be derived from social perspectives and understandings of occultist workings.  Even the notion of synchronicity which so many rely upon is more lore and an assumed relationship between an action and reaction and ones observation of it.  Yet to my mind it's a played word for nearly everything has a synchronicity when you open your awareness and observation dynamics.

 

I'll leave the first part alone as its just more of the new agey approach to things and assuming.  Though I do wonder what the collective you is going to do when you discover for every action there is an opposing reaction of direction coming from another source.  The new agey trend to think they are the only ones doing things falls right back into this argument as well.


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#34 Gyreleaf

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 12:06 PM

I have to ask how you create a target profile from a scenario where the only facts you know are.

 
No...these are only the facts WE know of that Izzie have told us. I am sure there is a lot more info for her to go on than this but shes hardly going to write it all out for us.

You talk a lot about making assumptions but the only person making assumptions is you monsno. Did you even read what I wrote above, I mean properly read it, not with your biased unjust indignation that others can and do work differently and with skills and knowledge that differ from you. Do not forget your not the only one with personal experience and traditional knowledge.

Some of us here are the cunning folk of today do not forget that either. From my point of view you show an extreme lack of cunning. In the past others would have said your riding your horse backwards with your cap on back to front getting your knickers in a twist.

I do not mean to offend you with my words and I have probably made assumptions of my own I should not have. But then no ones perfect.

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#35 Gyreleaf

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 12:33 PM

I have some further thoughts I should have mentioned in my fist post.

A name is just a name, the linking comes with everything else you have in mind about the person and who they are. "the person or persons who stole my money" as a concept, held in mind all the known details, can work just as good.

There are other ways to create and strengthen links. Keeping in mind the info you already have on a target you can draw lots that will further represent the target. You could draw cards, runes, sticks, bones, rocks etc. These will represent your target directly and you don't need to interpret the lots, just use them like an id number.

For instance I have a bag o bones, a bag of shells and a bag of pieces of bark. These are a jumbled up mixture of all kinds of different bones, shells and bark. I sit in my ritual space, burning appropriate incense and calling my spirits to help me etc. I then make my intent clear and keep in mind that I am forming and strengthening my link to a specific target. I then depending on intuition remove articles from each bag, never more than three from one bag. These lots I will then use to represent the target of my workings.

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#36 Michele

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 01:15 PM

This is an interesting topic.

 

To me there is so much room for error within spell-work, and in something of the magnitude of a curse it is a big responsibility. To me it would have to be exact beyond doubt for my personal ethics. To say "the person who stole from me" is for my life too open-ended - my son nicked 5 bucks from my wallet when he was 12, lol. Which sounds daft, but it is technically "someone who stole from me." And in my personal belief system, a spell is a spell exactly as worded with no "greater being" checking before it goes out and saying "oh - I bet she really meant to say except my son". I know that sounds simplistic, lol, but I think it is very important to really see what COULD happen in a spell that is not exact. 

 

But say it did take off and go looking for it's target... and say the theft was a whole computer-technical ring of on--line thieves who work from many different cities. Now the projection of the spell is weakening and going off in many opposing directions. The spell has no direction whether to go after the specific person who happened to get the card number or whether it is to go after the "ring" of theives as a whole (if there is, indeed, a ring of them).

 

And the next thing that for me would be a problem is delivery. I wouldn't know where to send it, what direction to cast it in, so it would have to be projected in all directions. Which to me would require an extremely strong delivery system with a lot of energy in the delivery source. 

 

I personally think magic has to work within the frame of reality. If it was that simple to effect a (possibly) large group and/or unknowns and then deliver it then wars would be won before they were even fought. Bloodshed itself could be halted by a simply massive spell of boils-to-the-butt of the invading army.

 

But these are just my personal views on a very conflicting topic, lol...

 

M


Edited by Michele, 29 June 2014 - 01:22 PM.

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#37 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 01:54 PM

 
No...these are only the facts WE know of that Izzie have told us. I am sure there is a lot more info for her to go on than this but shes hardly going to write it all out for us.

You talk a lot about making assumptions but the only person making assumptions is you monsno. Did you even read what I wrote above, I mean properly read it, not with your biased unjust indignation that others can and do work differently and with skills and knowledge that differ from you. Do not forget your not the only one with personal experience and traditional knowledge.

Some of us here are the cunning folk of today do not forget that either. From my point of view you show an extreme lack of cunning. In the past others would have said your riding your horse backwards with your cap on back to front getting your knickers in a twist.

I do not mean to offend you with my words and I have probably made assumptions of my own I should not have. But then no ones perfect.

 

 

Bolded mine.

 

Assumption?  Show me where I have made any assumptions and given any spell advise in this thread?  Sorry I don't give out spell or magical advise on how to do something without having a lot more info than has been presented in this thread by the OP.  Any suggestion beyond a physical means to me is assumption on the part of the adviser and their perspective about how to counter or negate the actions.  Nor to me is it assumption to point out logical fallacies to suggestions that have been made.  That to me is being a responsible elder within the community and trying to advise those who would jump in blindly into an action based upon knee jerk emotional responses or poorly laid out actions.  

 

To talk about modern cunning folk then give a bunch of advise based upon very limited information seems counter to what cunning folk represent and suggest.  Talk about being counter productive and passing of any accountability and culpability for ones actions and advise.  Sorry that is a far different definition of a cunning person than what my generation and training would recognize and suggest.   My generation was taught to reflect and consider the possibilities and then take responsibility and accountability for our advise and the results of that advise.  What I see far to often today seems to be don't worry about what you say once said its the other persons karma to act upon it not the one who spoke about it and brought it to their attention.  As such I don't give spell formatting and suggestions of usage unless I have enough information to make a logical decision based upon sufficient material to be reasonably certain of the total picture.

 

I will say though I take no offense at your position, words or perspective.  I may not agree with them and will gladly debate / discuss my reasons why but it takes a lot to get me to the point where I take offense at a position or perspective.


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#38 Guest_monsnoleedra_*

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:06 PM

I have some further thoughts I should have mentioned in my fist post.

A name is just a name, the linking comes with everything else you have in mind about the person and who they are. "the person or persons who stole my money" as a concept, held in mind all the known details, can work just as good.

There are other ways to create and strengthen links. Keeping in mind the info you already have on a target you can draw lots that will further represent the target. You could draw cards, runes, sticks, bones, rocks etc. These will represent your target directly and you don't need to interpret the lots, just use them like an id number.

For instance I have a bag o bones, a bag of shells and a bag of pieces of bark. These are a jumbled up mixture of all kinds of different bones, shells and bark. I sit in my ritual space, burning appropriate incense and calling my spirits to help me etc. I then make my intent clear and keep in mind that I am forming and strengthening my link to a specific target. I then depending on intuition remove articles from each bag, never more than three from one bag. These lots I will then use to represent the target of my workings.

 

 

I would disagree to the extent that to know a things name is to have power over it.  Making up names serves only to appease ones vanity and give them a sense of having control where none exists to them in my opinion.  everything else in this whole situation is based upon water that has already flowed beneath the bridge and is no longer active in the situation.  No receipt will change the fact it was already purchased.  No jar spell is going to undo or trap the person whose already used the card and may or may not possess it any longer.  Shooting an arrow or bullet into the past is not going to change the past nor affect the outcome of the water that has already flowed away and is now history to the stream and point in time.

 

Sorry pulling three items from your bag is no different than pulling three tarot cards to divine the future.  At best it only reflects the immediate point of the pulling and once pulled the future continues to change and unfold and new conditions and process take affect / effect on the outcome.  But even then it only serves in my opinion to indicate something acting upon the  future not what is being acted upon or specifically how it is being acted upon.  To a great degree not even who else may also be acting upon that desired goal or outcome.  Hence my remark earlier about many forces and magics may be acting upon a situation vice just what the person asking is contributing to the scenario.


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#39 Gyreleaf

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:09 PM

I never send a working out unless it is clear in mind and action what the spell is to do. I do agree though it matters especially if your working with spirits, they can take us literally at our words.

For this instance the intent of the working isn't "somebody who stole my money" but " the person who stole x amount, on y day, to buy z plus whatever else is known". That would be my intent and would be held firmly in mind when working.

As for direction to send it, that's why I create physical representations of links. The spell will work through them to the target.

To be honest I have been talking on the unknown assailant bit and not the curse. In this instance I probably wouldn't be trying to curse but practice my other skills, using the links to find out more information to be able to better protect myself.

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#40 Stacey

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 03:36 AM

Assumption?  Show me where I have made any assumptions and given any spell advise in this thread?  Sorry I don't give out spell or magical advise on how to do something without having a lot more info than has been presented in this thread by the OP.  

 

You do get this is a forum where people trade ideas and such whether the information is limited or overly specific, it's a community, a place of sharing and discussion. Izzie shared her story and asked for suggestions or ideas. We did so and she can take or leave what we said to fit her particular situation. I feel like you think you're better than everyone here or at least think you know more and therefore are better situated to judge others and throw your opinion around like it's the most important one. No one witch practices the same as another but you seem to think that everyone should practice as you do otherwise they're wrong. This is just my impression of you, I could be wrong - you may not see yourself that way but it is how you come across. 

 

I imagine Izzie will be quite specific in her working, I highly doubt she is going to throw the curse or hex out to hit numerous people. A specific person took her card number and used it or sold it on. A specific person is responsible for taking her money, whether she knows that name or not is irrelevant. And it can work. I remember reading an article where a coven of witches pulled together to have a serial rapist targeting women in their neighbourhood caught. They performed their working and a week or so later he was caught. They didn't know his name, they knew him only by his actions so it is possible to do as long as you word your working carefully to target the correct person/s.


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"The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by an invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing." Severus Snape - HP and the Order of the Phoenix





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