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Have you Danced Your Tools?


Guest monsnoleedra

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This has me thinking about forms.  Have any of you actually watched a martial artist go through their forms and practice with a weapon?  It's a beautiful thing to watch.

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Guest monsnoleedra

This has me thinking about forms.  Have any of you actually watched a martial artist go through their forms and practice with a weapon?  It's a beautiful thing to watch.

 

 

A few of them.  Used to like watching some of the samurai events on Japanese tv while I lived there.  Some Renfaire or medieval practices had some really neat sword dancing.  When I live in Spain there where a couple of places that sold Toledo and Damascus blades that occasionally put on displays.  

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Well, I think your level of amazement of people not dancing their tools is going to become less and less :P  I haven't danced with my tools, and I don't really have dedicated tools - at least not in the sense of knives, sword, athame, wand, etc.  My path isn't ritualistic in nature, though I can and do perform complex spells at times which require more pomp than others, the tools I use are ones that are part of my daily life.  That is, when I choose to use those kinds of tools - which isn't often.

 

For tools that aren't pointy/cutty/swooshy in nature (eg: tarot, runes, etc) I do have dedicated sets but they aren't consecrated in the sense of me performing a rite to dedicate them for whatever purpose, or to me.

 

So I haven't done any of the things you say a witch needs to have done to move away from the dumbed down or new age categories.  Maybe I should pack up my bags ;)  Don't worry, I'm not offended by your words, I think you have yet to discover the varied paths a traditional witch can take, in my opinion.  This website can be an invaluable learning tool, though some may now feel less inclined to share things about themselves while you're coming out swinging.  My advice, and I hope you take it as intended, is to be clear when your blanket statements are your opinion (by simply adding "in my opinion") rather than stating them as though they are universal fact. Just my 2c, take it or leave it as you wish!

 

I do find the idea of dancing with tools to be interesting.  I think dance is a great way of building up energy, as well as being very freeing, and I can definitely see how it would be a way of feeling as one with whatever you're wearing or holding.  I don't think that it's the *only* way of doing that, but it definitely sounds beautiful :)

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Well you should have reread and selected a bit more carefully then!

 

In the context of what you wrote, it is implied that your use of the term “tools” refers to such things as athames, swords, staffs, wands, and the like. So, in the context you presented in your original posting, no, not every witch uses tools, ie knives, swords, staffs, stangs, chalices, etc. in their workings.

 

Regarding your lengthy paragraph about tools, do not presume to explain and define such a simple term and notion to me.  Again, I was going by the context of what you wrote; for when one refers to a witches tools and then goes on about swords and stangs, it is easy to see why I would think that is the definition of “tool” that you were using, not about bottles and ingredients, scissors and screwdrivers. Are you saying then that you dance with every sprig of sage you use, every handful of needles or dust?   Hey if you do, fine, good for you.  Your path, your ways. Not mine.

 

Only new age witches don’t use tools eh? That’s rather limiting of you.  Well now you’ve met a witch who rarely if ever uses an athame or wands, and who isn’t new age.  It is MY personal belief that using my body is much more powerful than using a wand, let’s say.  Why would I need such a thing when I have my fingers? Again, MY belief.  A lot of my forum-mates here use wands and more power to them!  I respect them!

 

No I don’t have a “narrow definition of the word dance.” I responded to YOUR definition of the word that I gathered from the only source available--from your post; your words and your descriptions of what you meant.  Seeing how I don’t know you, that is all I have to go on. 

 

You wrote:  “If it cast a shadow or pallor over your comprehending what is there that says more about you and assumptions / limitations than anything I wrote.”

 

No, it didn’t cast a pallor over my comprehension, it cast a pallor over my reception. Big difference there.  Perhaps I should have used the more scientific term “negative haloing”

 

Reading without emotion eh? Then why don't you just write using utilitarian terminology and dispense with all the fluffy adjectives. Your writing is striving for emotional reaction from your readers or else you wouldn’t be writing the way you do.  Again it would have been so much better if it hadn’t be prologued by that "amazes me" statement. And I’m really not interested in how old you are.  News flash, I was alive in the sixties as well.  A lot of us here were.  Besides, age-schmage. A lot of twenty-somethings that I know are a heck a lot more experienced and knowledgeable than I am. They constantly amaze me--in a good way.

 

 

 

Hm lets see a tool is an object that allows a person to perform some task usually by hand or via some other mechanical instrument.  So I have only met New Age witches who profess they use no tools what so ever.  They consider it as all being done via channeling and having their channeled being do for them.  So yes every witch, occultist, practitioner, etc uses tools to perform whatever action or desire they are attempting to have manifest in the physical.  So why should I not be amazed at the lack of people who actually dance their tools, or even be amazed as to the opening statement you make here and the assumption or limitation it paints upon modern witchcraft and how it is performed.

 

At best it suggest to me the prevailing notion of dumbing down of witchcraft and paganism / occultism in general.If you write you use a tool. If you create a potion, enclosed item that contains ingredients, chant or sing a spell or song you've used a tool.  A tool and its usage that is increased via opening and awakening it and becoming one with it.  Not dedicating it, not consecrating it, not even placing it on some altar or trying to make it special as a magical instrument.

Then factor in a tool is awakened by certain movements and actions.  I didn't say all tools had to be opened via physical dance.  Yes for those who use swords or staves physical dancing is one way we join with that with we utilize our tools to become one with them and they to form an aspect of our body, to become an extension.  Yet the usage of the term Dance only suggests the movement and actions / steps that are created to show  the process of moving about, upward, dowward or or upon a vertical or horizontal plain then anything that uses the body is dancing. The process of starting a fire is as much a dance of movement and purpose as doing something like the fox trot or ball room dancing.  Especially when one considers the tool is their partner in the dance and movements that shall unfold during the process.

 

The terms I used were selected very carefully and meant to convey how all things are tools to us (collective) in the performance of our calling.  How every action is a dance as we use all aspects of our bodies to convey movement, speed, concentration and union between the physical, the psychological, the energy of though and manifestation and the dance of the mind where the shape, form, constraints or limitations of each thing is touched. To have the tool become a part of us that is an extension of our physical body and used to direct or mold though into form, pattern and reality.

 

Perhaps not your intent but your narrow definition of what the words tool and dance mean simply further supports the notion that most do not dance their tools.  They use them, they dedicate them or consecrate them but they seldom make them an extension of their body..  They are the cook who has to use the book to create for they have not the touch and connection to their tools to smell where it is at.  To hear the whisper of the metal as it heats up, to hear the song of the contents and container interacting with one another. To feel the heat of the item even though it doesn't touch their hands or fingers for it is not part of them.

 

Pathway didn't matter for pathway only pertained to the manner we arrived at a destination.  Awakening and dancing ones tools was the source that joined them to us and made them part of us and us part of them.  It's how we heard the blade cut the air or felt it as it moved about us in the choreography of movements, patterns and connections as we felt the air move, felt the weight upon every aspect of our body  even to see through our items.

 

If my usage and terms cause that much discontent to you then I'd say the problem lies more on your end than mine. If it cast a shadow or pallor over your comprehending what is there that says more about you and assumptions / limitations than anything I wrote.

 

Strange in the 1960's I was taught you read the words and leave emotion out of them.  I guess that is another thing that has been lost over the years for it seems many claim clouded perspectives for they use their emotions to influence vice actually reading.  Wonder how much i'd have missed over the years if I let my hackles be raised by a thing vice not blocking it because it didn't present an idea or concept that I liked?  I'm willing to bet quiet a bit would have been missed or lost..
 

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I'm not Lynn but were I her, I'd find this statement rather offensive.

 

Your original post used the terms "stang", "sword", "athame", "wand", "weapon". I can see where Lynn took the meaning for "tool" that she did because it wasn't until your reply to her that you expanded your definition to include the pen one writes with, a container, etc.

 

Your "dancing with tools", regardless of the connotation of "tool" or "dance" is your path. It's not mine and I can guarantee it's not others', as well. And it has nothing to do with "new age" or even simply "age". (I'm older than you.) It has everything to do with how we practice.

Hey. :)

I think I'll mosey on over here and say yes to this posting of yours MW.  Thanks!  Exactly!!!

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Good grief. Okay, point by point for clarity-sake.

 

First this paragraph:

 

As Lynn said there are many ways to open a tool, to bad she didn't take the opportunity to discuss them.   Yup too bad.  I didn’t have the time then.

 

But like many if not most emotional positions it was not about what I suggested and presented but about how it didn't align with another's perspective of how things work.  Instead it was based upon feelings and emotions and showed more emotion that my perspective and conclusions didn't condone that perspective and usage vice actually discussing the difference or reasoning for arriving at such a conclusion            

 

Ummm, in a word, no.  You are far off base with this. It was a direct response to how you presented your perspective of how things worked, ie the amazement you expressed that others don’t do what you consider to be vastly important. In other words the lack of doing this thing did not align with how you felt things ought to be, ie dancing with tools.  But mainly it was a direct answer to your question; “Do you dance with your tools?”.  I pointed out the fact that not all witches use tools. A fact; a simple fact that does not need endless discussion and presentations of logic and reasoning, for again, it is a fact, not an opinion. Not all witches use tools. Nice and succinct! You asked, I answered.

 

Moving right along. Next paragraph:

Consider this thread.  Lynn starts off with the emotional position makes claims but offers not a single example or discussion point.  
 

Okay, here is my original  post.  Btw I love how you keep taking great pains to call it “emotional”! I thought I was just stating the obvious! 

 

First, and most obviously, not all of us use tools.  Secondly, I don't get why it amazes you the number of practitioners that have not done so.  That have not "danced their tools" the same way you have. Do we all walk the same path as you? Don't get me wrong, your post was eloquently written and interesting to read, BUT to preface it with that sentence of it "amazing you", kinda made my hackles go up a wee bit and unfortunately cast a shadow over your entire posting There are many ways to awaken ones tools in ones hands. Your way is only one of those ways.

 

Hmmm,  I see  a statement of fact, not all witches use tools,  and I was pointing out that not everyone practices the same way you do.  Simple, to the point.  (not all of us need hundreds of words to make our point) 

 

Ah, this must be the “emotional” part; when I mentioned it made my hackles go up, and the fact your statement gave the posting a bit of a negative haloing effect. That was an observation.  I was saying it was a shame, because it was a lovely worded post. 

 

Next I was pointing out that not everyone walks the same path as you, that was meant to hopefully make you realize that hey! There are a lot of witches here and just as many traditions! 

 

Seriously, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill of this. Next!!

 

Simply the I'm offended and not all of us do something.  The typical I need to be offended presentation and lack of any points or comparison beyond the self serving.

 

Unreal. Let’s get one thing straight shall we dear?  Your “amazes me” statement made me roll my eyes and mildly annoyed me, but that was the extent of it. Offended? No. Why would I be? Who are you to me? That’s right, no body. The only thing you are to me now is a stranger who is getting increasingly more annoying as they go on about this ad infinium.

 

In comparison Travsha presents her (?) perspective and opinion.  Offers a point of comparison and potential discussion aspect.  States how she would approach a tool and where she believes knowledge and training with that tool might be obtained.  Upon surface observation and assumption of knowledge and skill i'd place Travsha far above where I'd place Lynn based upon responses and projected knowledge.  Which of course impacts upon a persons credibility and implied knowledge.

 

You certainly make a lot of assumptions about a complete stranger just from one extremely short post!  You can’t seem to let it go, my short little observation and answer.   It’s almost as if you are going into defensive mode. Come to think of it I noticed that anyone else who brings up any criticism of your choice of words in your original post is likewise labeled by you and absolutely deluged upon.  Btw; editing is your friend. Make each word work for you! Just some constructive advice.

 

To everyone discussing this topic of tool dancing and all, I do apologize for this huge off topic post, but I felt it necessary to respond to all the times I was mentioned here.  Okay back to topic. Thanks for your patience guys!

 

edited to change color of text. :smile:

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This has me thinking about forms.  Have any of you actually watched a martial artist go through their forms and practice with a weapon?  It's a beautiful thing to watch.

Hi RR. :)

Long ago I used to watch a show called "Highlander". The actor who portrayed the main character practiced martial arts and used several swords as well as learning different forms of swordplay from a master swordsman for the show.  He performed a martial arts routine with a katana that was incredibly graceful and beautiful.  Also there was an Italian form of combat with a rapier and a dagger, fought in a very confined area and that was so much like a dance! Also beautiful to watch. :)

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Hi RR. :smile:

Long ago I used to watch a show called "Highlander". The actor who portrayed the main character practiced martial arts and used several swords as well as learning different forms of swordplay from a master swordsman for the show.  He performed a martial arts routine with a katana that was incredibly graceful and beautiful.  Also there was an Italian form of combat with a rapier and a dagger, fought in a very confined area and that was so much like a dance! Also beautiful to watch. :smile:

 

Oooooh, I loved Highlander and yes, his workouts with his swords were beautiful. Watching people "dance" with their swords is an amazing thing. Jason Momoa in SGA was much the same, graceful, fluid and beautiful with his weapons when he moved. I can appreciate it, I don't do it (not directed at you Lynn). 

 

One thing I've discovered all across the world is those who tend to claim that far more often do so because they can not or will not commit to a more challenging dedication and commitment to things.  Very much part and parcel to the me, me, me attitude one encounters across the board.  You might take it as an insult but its simply a documented fact within psychology, sociology, and cultural norms.  A fact frequently commented upon by academics and social support functions and personal in many support services.

 

Monsno, I'm a hedge witch. I speak only for myself but tools such as you mentioned have no part or use in my path. Do you imagine that being a hedge witch is easy, requires no commitment and is not challenging? I hate to disabuse you of your misguided notion but it is very challenging and requires a lot of commitment. It's not an easy path to walk. It can be a bitch sometimes but you do it because it is the path you're dedicated to. To assume I am not committed or dedicated because I don't fit in with your vision of what is correct is unreasonable. My path is simple and intuitive but there are parts of it that are damn hard work. So don't presume to lecture me about being emotional or offended or not being committed to my path when you don't know the first thing about me or what I do.

 

If you can give a logical argument and reasons why my perspective is illogical, unfounded or unrealistic I welcome the discussion.  If your argument is simply because its not the way you do something and it offends you then that simply serves to stifle discussion and comparison of concepts.  It only serves to further make a person feel good without ever having to actually defend their position or be able to present a counter argument based upon something more in-depth than "You hurt my feelings!"  

 

I don't think your perspective or opinion is illogical or unfounded. I think your initial presentation of your experience came across as condescending, elitist and as though anyone not dancing their tools is not a real witch because they would otherwise. You've since defended your point adding in extra information to justify your initial post. As others have stated, we're simply responding to your original post where you termed "tools" in a very specific way. If you meant anything you should have stated so. To then begin acting as though we're being childish or simple because we called you out on it shows a lack of understanding of anyone else's viewpoint other than your own. This is not about ego or emotions, it is simple courtesy toward others on this board. When some one replies with 'I don't dance tools because I don't use an athame or wand etc' it is not good form to then reply in a patronising tone of 'if you use herbs, tarot etc then you do'. 

 

If you had of been a little bit more humble and approachable instead of projecting an air of superiority, I would have shared that back when I was Wiccan and was more in tune with using tools, I did in fact dance my athame. Quite often. It was the only tool that I had any physicality with because out of all of my tools, it was the only one that felt as though it needed it. I still have that athame, all of my tools in fact as most were handmade for me or gifts, but I rarely, if ever use them. As I have developed and grown, my path has changed, the way I do things have changed. The biggest change is of course that I am no longer Wiccan. My experience as a hedge witch has come about using means other than "traditional" tools. I use herbs most of all in most aspects of my paths, as well as candles. As Gyreleaf said, we mutter, we chant, we sit in places of power, we draw in energies and we talk to them. I do this with my herbs, I do this with my candles but I don't do any sort of ritualistic dance or attunement. It's not necessary for me.

 

If you wanted to discuss the "dumbing down" of Craft practices today you should have done so in a separate thread. You would have gotten a lot of opinions and discussions from likely most of us. Instead you slip it into a discussion about tools and wonder why people get pissed off? 

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Oooooh, I loved Highlander and yes, his workouts with his swords were beautiful. Watching people "dance" with their swords is an amazing thing. Jason Momoa in SGA was much the same, graceful, fluid and beautiful with his weapons when he moved. I can appreciate it, I don't do it (not directed at you Lynn). 

 

Cool!  Wonderful series!  *sigh*  Ahem, anyway---SGA?  What is that Stacey?

 

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Well said, Stacey.

 

I also applaud Lynn’s reply.

 

IMO Monsnoleedra is still acting in his former role as an instructor in a military tech school.  IMO he seems to think that members on this site would benefit from his tuition.

 

This could be the reason why he chose a Public site which guests could read.

 

I can envisage him marking the replies which he receives about our practices with tools – if any.  (The red pen will be used).

 

Monsnoleedra is probably blissfully unaware that he is coming across as an instructor.

 

I have no problem with anything he says or does.  That is his perfect right because it is what he does and what he is.

 

I am not prepared to be explicit about how I was given servitors to enable me to maim and kill in the best manner of East Anglian Witches.

 

More members would be forthcoming if they were able to respond on a Private members site.  But wait… that would mean Monsnoleedra would not be able to read our replies.  Perhaps he would like to start another interesting thread.

 

Given the guy’s predilection for sharing knowledge of course he would.

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I wrote a reply and my laptop crashed so I'm not going to try to re-write it.

 

All I'm going to say on this is that this forum is set up in a unique way.  Almost all of the forums that I've run across, been a member of or are still a member of are set up very differently.  I do realize that there are members here who are only members here.  To try to assume why someone is posting where guests can read is unique to this forum's set up.  Most other forums - anyone can come through and read.

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Guest monsnoleedra

Well said, Stacey.

 

I also applaud Lynn’s reply.

 

IMO Monsnoleedra is still acting in his former role as an instructor in a military tech school.  IMO he seems to think that members on this site would benefit from his tuition.

 

This could be the reason why he chose a Public site which guests could read.

 

I can envisage him marking the replies which he receives about our practices with tools – if any.  (The red pen will be used).

 

Monsnoleedra is probably blissfully unaware that he is coming across as an instructor.

 

I have no problem with anything he says or does.  That is his perfect right because it is what he does and what he is.

 

I am not prepared to be explicit about how I was given servitors to enable me to maim and kill in the best manner of East Anglian Witches.

 

More members would be forthcoming if they were able to respond on a Private members site.  But wait… that would mean Monsnoleedra would not be able to read our replies.  Perhaps he would like to start another interesting thread.

 

Given the guy’s predilection for sharing knowledge of course he would.

 

 

I will grant that perhaps I am coming across as an instructor.  23 Years in the military and 10 more in the school system probably tends to support that position.

 

Regarding sharing info or knowledge your right I will share to a degree.  I find it much more responsible to share and talk in front of people than to hide behind supposed advanced walls and play uber witch.  Granted there are things I hold as the public forum is not the appropriate place for such discussions.  Yet I haven't found a whole lot that warrants such other than more often to appease a sense of self importance.  What's sad to me is all the green member's who so negatively respond to this post are also the ones who have made so little postings in the open area where your new members or seekers are located.  Sorry very poor form on any forum I am a member of or a mod for.  Sadly I personally find the more members would respond on a closed forum to be a lie as most often that simply turns into a patting each other on the back for their supposed witchyness.

 

Though perhaps that also pertains to the us versus them problems the site had not to long ago and resulted in a number of people being banned from what I am told or can deduce from the threads I've read.  Though jumping upon new member's also seemed to be very much a part of the modus operandi that was employed around here.  Guess that's why the admins had to create an area where the green member's couldn't see or attack the seekers.  Sort of like how this thread is progressing, nothing of substance from any of you until I made this thread then swooping in to tear it apart or take affront at it.  Yes I checked posting history as I was curious about that.  Part of the analytical mindset I have.

 

As far as the red pen being used, sorry doesn't happen.  I don't critique on how you do or do not use tools.  I just like to discuss methods of using things or reasoning behind why we use certain things or tools.  I don't tend to get butt hurt because someone stats they do or use something a certain way and it differs from my practices. 

 

As far as choosing a public site, why not?  I have nothing to hide nor am I ashamed of who or what I am.  Yeah I'll talk about things maybe give examples for discussion to people might be able to relate or compare and contrast it against.  Sorry I leave it to the playgans to stress about how they can't be themselves and profess such a deep need to hide who and what they are from the open air.  I don't go broadcasting it but I don't hide it either.  Sort of the walk in truth aspect I was taught so many years ago.  Part of walking in truth is to speak what you know, be willing to defend your conclusions and willing to change when it can be shown your logic and conclusions are wrong or out of date.

 

I see your 81 according to your profile and would love to had made your acquaintance under other conditions for I try to respect my elders.  I shall try to consider your words for the words for each occurrence and not let things linger as I think you've earned that right and implied sense of respect from me.  

 

Of course veiled threats or attempt at such that's a whole differing story line.  Servitors aren't the only way to reach out and touch someone.  But I simply hope i'm misreading that aspect and any veiled suggestions it may contain.

 

And a once potential thread for discussion and development goes even further afield to right the I'm offended grouping.  Either that or perhaps i'm just encountering the last remnants of the banned group I was warned about who liked to attack.  Hope I'm wrong and maybe an admin or mod will clarify things but it seems unlikely.  Is interesting though I get told to stay on topic in other threads with drift yet no such statements or warnings about staying on the topic of tools and their use / dance.  Perhaps there was more to the story than I've been able to pick out from threads around here.

 

Yet I imagine i'll be the one to get the warning after all I'm just a blue seeker not a green uber witch who can commiserate behind closed doors.  Yes that is frustration speaking

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Guest monsnoleedra

Oooooh, I loved Highlander and yes, his workouts with his swords were beautiful. Watching people "dance" with their swords is an amazing thing. Jason Momoa in SGA was much the same, graceful, fluid and beautiful with his weapons when he moved. I can appreciate it, I don't do it (not directed at you Lynn). 

 

In truth i've never based my perceptions off of tv shows nor can I truly speak about Highlander and if the actor did sword dancing or not.

 

Monsno, I'm a hedge witch. I speak only for myself but tools such as you mentioned have no part or use in my path. Do you imagine that being a hedge witch is easy, requires no commitment and is not challenging? I hate to disabuse you of your misguided notion but it is very challenging and requires a lot of commitment. It's not an easy path to walk. It can be a bitch sometimes but you do it because it is the path you're dedicated to. To assume I am not committed or dedicated because I don't fit in with your vision of what is correct is unreasonable. My path is simple and intuitive but there are parts of it that are damn hard work. So don't presume to lecture me about being emotional or offended or not being committed to my path when you don't know the first thing about me or what I do.

 

We have a differing view of what a hedge rider or hedge witch it apparently.  As to ease or difficulty I can only judge based upon my own experiences and relationships with others who have identified as hedge witches / hedge riders.  Those I've know have very much aligned along the boundaries where they would also pass for kitchen or green witches in nearly all means except the actual aspect of journey work and crossing the hedge (boundary between the physical world and spiritual plains). As far as ease I grant perhaps I am wrong for I consider difficulty based upon my aspect of having died in the physical and being ripped apart in the journey world or experiencing a shamanic illness which goes to the boundary but doesn't result in dying.

 

As to tools again I can only judge against what I have used or what I know others to use and their reasons / methods of using them.  As to you individually I never said Stacey did or is _________.  However I did state and suggest that the majority of people are a product of the me me me generation and mindset and as such are not willing to commit to a given pathway.  A fact I saw in application every day in the military as new people came in and every day in the school system as we watched things change.

 

But then if I take your input and match it against the norm you become the exception to the rule not the visual embodiment of the rule.  At this point in time the only verification I have of your position is a few posts you've made and what your arguing.  Other than a side bar remark which is sort of snide you've not presented a whole lot upon the boards that would indicate any reason to consider you other than as I have to this point.  However, that said this response has changed some aspects of my perception by identifying you as a hedge witch. 

 

I don't think your perspective or opinion is illogical or unfounded. I think your initial presentation of your experience came across as condescending, elitist and as though anyone not dancing their tools is not a real witch because they would otherwise. You've since defended your point adding in extra information to justify your initial post. As others have stated, we're simply responding to your original post where you termed "tools" in a very specific way. If you meant anything you should have stated so. To then begin acting as though we're being childish or simple because we called you out on it shows a lack of understanding of anyone else's viewpoint other than your own. This is not about ego or emotions, it is simple courtesy toward others on this board. When some one replies with 'I don't dance tools because I don't use an athame or wand etc' it is not good form to then reply in a patronising tone of 'if you use herbs, tarot etc then you do'. 

 

But then your attacking without clarification or questioning as to what I was trying to convey.  Assumption at its best.  So who is responding in a childish manner here?  Called out?  Was never called out simply challenged for a position or perspective adn assumed that I should take another's challenge when it served no other purpose than to speak down upon.  Not a single "Why did you do this?"  Why do you think that" "Does it only pertain to ____"  No shotgun questions, no probing questions, no overhead questions, no leading questions, 

 

With regard to tools unless you live in a bubble and do all things via telepathy, telekinesis or pyschokinesis then you use tools.  If I identify as hedge witch do you not use a stang for instance?  It is simply a three pronged wooden fork or spoon used for digging or working the ground in many usages.  That just an example off the top of my head.  I suppose that is where part of the confusion arises for me when I hear people say they use no tools in their practices.

 

The final part of your reply about herbs, tarot, etc is not patronizing it is simply direct and active voice.  There was no belittling statement or condition attached to the remark.  For example I did not say or suggest "Are you stupid and can not recognize that ________ is a tool.  That to me is patronizing, that I did not do. 

 

If you had of been a little bit more humble and approachable instead of projecting an air of superiority, I would have shared that back when I was Wiccan and was more in tune with using tools, I did in fact dance my athame. Quite often. It was the only tool that I had any physicality with because out of all of my tools, it was the only one that felt as though it needed it. I still have that athame, all of my tools in fact as most were handmade for me or gifts, but I rarely, if ever use them. As I have developed and grown, my path has changed, the way I do things have changed. The biggest change is of course that I am no longer Wiccan. My experience as a hedge witch has come about using means other than "traditional" tools. I use herbs most of all in most aspects of my paths, as well as candles. As Gyreleaf said, we mutter, we chant, we sit in places of power, we draw in energies and we talk to them. I do this with my herbs, I do this with my candles but I don't do any sort of ritualistic dance or attunement. It's not necessary for me.

 

Sorry I do not speak or write in passive or inferior position.  Never have probably never will.  I tend to write in first person or occasionally third person.  Whether that is due to being an instructor / teacher for so long or because I have an Authoritarian type of leadership traits I can't say.  

 

If you wanted to discuss the "dumbing down" of Craft practices today you should have done so in a separate thread. You would have gotten a lot of opinions and discussions from likely most of us. Instead you slip it into a discussion about tools and wonder why people get pissed off? 

 

To pass the buck back you to could have equally started that as a thread once the subject was broached in this one.

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Well, I think your level of amazement of people not dancing their tools is going to become less and less :tongue:  I haven't danced with my tools, and I don't really have dedicated tools - at least not in the sense of knives, sword, athame, wand, etc.  My path isn't ritualistic in nature, though I can and do perform complex spells at times which require more pomp than others, the tools I use are ones that are part of my daily life.  That is, when I choose to use those kinds of tools - which isn't often.

 

I certainly hope so.  I suppose part of the issue lies in word usage and choice.  I have some ritualistic aspects to my practice whether because of ceremonial / high magics influences or simply familial influences that protected the family. 

 

For tools that aren't pointy/cutty/swooshy in nature (eg: tarot, runes, etc) I do have dedicated sets but they aren't consecrated in the sense of me performing a rite to dedicate them for whatever purpose, or to me.

 

Would you care to expound on this aspect?  I have tools that I pick up along the trail and used for a specific function or ceremony then dropped or returned back to nature when I am done.  They are dedicated in the sense they were used for a purpose but not dedicated or consecrated in the sense that I retain them or use them other times.  Figure I find a skull, use it for a purpose then return it to nature that it may be broken down and used by other peoples.

 

So I haven't done any of the things you say a witch needs to have done to move away from the dumbed down or new age categories.  Maybe I should pack up my bags :wink:  Don't worry, I'm not offended by your words, I think you have yet to discover the varied paths a traditional witch can take, in my opinion.  This website can be an invaluable learning tool, though some may now feel less inclined to share things about themselves while you're coming out swinging.  My advice, and I hope you take it as intended, is to be clear when your blanket statements are your opinion (by simply adding "in my opinion") rather than stating them as though they are universal fact. Just my 2c, take it or leave it as you wish!

 

Thank you I shall try to remember that.  I used to preface everything with IMO. IMHO, etc then got tired of well that's opinion so it doesn't count and only serves as a form of UPG (Unverifiable or Un-provable Personal Gnosis).

 

I do find the idea of dancing with tools to be interesting.  I think dance is a great way of building up energy, as well as being very freeing, and I can definitely see how it would be a way of feeling as one with whatever you're wearing or holding.  I don't think that it's the *only* way of doing that, but it definitely sounds beautiful :smile:

 

Thank you.  I'm not saying its the only way just something I though might be interesting to share.  

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Though perhaps that also pertains to the us versus them problems the site had not to long ago and resulted in a number of people being banned from what I am told or can deduce from the threads I've read.  Though jumping upon new member's also seemed to be very much a part of the modus operandi that was employed around here.  Guess that's why the admins had to create an area where the green member's couldn't see or attack the seekers.  Sort of like how this thread is progressing, nothing of substance from any of you until I made this thread then swooping in to tear it apart or take affront at it.  Yes I checked posting history as I was curious about that.  Part of the analytical mindset I have.

 

 

Yet I imagine i'll be the one to get the warning after all I'm just a blue seeker not a green uber witch who can commiserate behind closed doors.  Yes that is frustration speaking

 

Monsoleedra, any problems this site has had in the past have been dealt with to the satisfaction of all concerned by the moderating team and need to stay where they belong - in the past. There is no us v them between green and blue members of this forum. Nor do any green members to my knowledge believe that having their name coloured green gives them any more credibility as a witch. There are and there always will be seekers who know more/practise with greater power than their green counterparts. The only difference between the different types of members is that the members coloured green have usually been around longer and therefore have posted enough to confirm a personality fit for the site.

 

Speaking for both myself and a lot of other members, I don't even bother checking where a thread is, I reply to the threads that interest me. None of the members in this thread are making copious posts in the private areas and ignoring the public areas. Why would we? The new people joining the forum are the lifeblood of keeping conversations fresh and alive. The recent contributions by many of the seekers (including yourself) have produced some of the most thought provoking threads in recent weeks.

 

I certainly agree that the way you come across is both belligerent and a trifle all knowing. This is a shame as I believe you have some valuable contributions to make here. Rather than looking to issues the forum may have had in the past to explain the frustration some forum members are experiencing with your posts - look to the posts themselves. If you toned down the big I am a bit you'd get your message across without creating animosity. Your path is an interesting one and you offer a very different perspective on topics under discussion. My friendly advice is to take the teaching hat off and stop looking for problems that no longer exist.

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and stop looking for problems that no longer exist.

 

 

 

This thread is proof enough that they still do.  And the 'past' is only in the last week or so. 

 

Can anyone here honestly deny that new seekers with strong personalities get jumped on?  It happened to me.  I've seen it happen to others since I got here and I've seen it play out over the older threads that I've read. 

 

What get's me the most about this thread is how people are freaking out over 'the dumbing down of witchcraft' yet how many posts are there where we've discussed this already - even in passing?  Bunches of them.  It's something we bitch about on a regular basis.  I don't understand why it's suddenly a problem in this thread.

 

One thing I noticed while reading through all of this is that those of us that have worked with pointy or sharp tools all seem to understand the concept of 'dancing' with them.  I don't understand why that is getting lost in all of this bullshit.

 

FFS - I made a post once where I said I could 'taste' certain people.  Which I can.  It's one of the ways in which I can sense a persons energy.  That was taken as a threat, my post was removed and it turned into a whole great big deal and yet now we're talking about using servitors to maim and kill?!?!?  Seriously?  Why was that not taken as a threat and removed?

 

It's no secret that MonSno and I are friends.  I'm the one that invited him here and anyone that's read the recent posts has probably figured that out already.  This isn't 'protecting or defending' my friend.  He can speak for himself and he has.  But the underlying problems that this forum has are still playing out right here - right now.  'Let's not talk about the past'?  Why not?  Except this isn't the past - this is right now and it's still happening.  The last little group that got banned were obviously not the entire problem because it's still happening.

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Monso - we don't hide in the "green" area and bitch. If you had asked any of the Mods - or any members, they would tell you that there is a private area for a reason. It's not for newbie exclusion but for topics deemed a little too private or intense for public consumption. Some of us use flying ointments with quite dangerous herbs, do you think we should discuss that in the public area open to seekers? Do you think we should discuss the use of herbs like belladonna, datura and henbane in amounts and experiences in a public area? It would be hugely irresponsible, as would many other topics that are discussed in the private area. Should you ever get to become "green" you will see that. Members are banned for good reason - was your reference to that Fox guy? If so, trust me, he deserved it.

 

I find it interesting you think some of us are hiding who we are. I've had articles published and I use my real name, I hide nothing of who I am or what I practice. My username is Stacey - it's actually my name. You haven't been told to stay on topic in this particular thread I'd venture because your thread had more than one topic to begin with. Perhaps you should approach your posts with a little less "instruction" and a little more discussion. How about prefacing with 'my opinion'? It lessens the effect of instruction or telling what to do. I've read a few of your posts and enjoyed them, I may not have responded but I did read them. This one annoyed me simply because of the overarching elitism and superior tone. You know, it's great that you contribute. It's great that you have the time to sit there and write hundreds of words for posts. I don't. My lack of posting is not because I'm not involved but simply because I don't have the time. I've had a few quiet days which is why I've been posting. 

 

RoseRed - I got jumped on at the start. I got over it and got on with it and now it doesn't happen. Not all new members get "jumped on". Sometimes we come on here being a bit too arrogant or full of ourselves and we get called on it. I must be out on the banned thing because I don't remember anyone recently who was. It's not done lightly from what I can tell - as the Fox guy who was mentioned. He went out of his way to be difficult to everyone.

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And yet once again the subject is lost tools and dancing with them.  Maybe this thread should have been named butt hurt and ego.  What a shame.

 

With regard to herbs, lets see one can talk about nuclear weapons and their affects / effects without going into how to make one.  The same applies to your example.  Flying ointments are often spoken off without going into the composition of the ointment itself or the percentages of each herb / substance that a particular practitioner chooses to utilize.  The traits of particular herbs are equally spoken of as to what each does, dangers of combining various groups, etc.  Heck even the interaction on a chemical scale between certain herbs and certain woods, especially those that are already potentially troublesome due to acidic content or chemicals found in their bark.  That's stuff that people in the country teach our kids who go outside, nothings special or needing to be hidden.

 

So sorry the woo woo factor so many try to assign to things is more about them than about the subject.  Especially from a green or hedge witch perspective.  If anything i'd say more damage is done with that though for those who are seeking and trying to discover get sidetracked to less than creditable sources because others try to protect and hide it.  None of that is to say i'd encourage a person to experiment with them but i'd not hide what they are or the danger of using them potentially.  Nope not any more than i'd not tell a child groups of three leave it be as it tends to fall into the poison category of plants such as Ivy, Oak and Sumac.

 

As far as the green area I judge based upon what you do where I can see.  Behind the doors I can only extrapolate based upon what I know to occur behind the walls on many other sites and how most often it simply turns into a pat each other on the back and complain.  Seldom anything new for its all the same members with all the same traits  Many times going over all the same things with nothing new added.  Coupled to the suggestion what they are talking about it to dangerous to be spoken of outside covering areas.  Yet seldom anything more than what is found in any basic 101 book on the market which leads newbies to think it is easy and not dangerous because all the so called advanced practitioners won't talk about it.  One of the major reasons I've seen at least 5 sites die because they bitch and complain about new posters then sit behind the walls and do nothing to encourage postings or put out threads that can actually be more than the many aped color charts, this stone is used for ______ or what's my totem / spirit animal.

 

Now how about turning the conversation back to tools and dancing with them please!

 

Like If I grow a tree and warp it to form serpentine rolls or coils I seldom dance with it.  The dancing occurred in the creation process and already has the spiral or conical movement of energy.  Yet that is also a function I seldom take as it bends the shape and energy flow of the living tree into something not natural as a normal occurrence.

 

A blade that is cold forged I seldom dance with either as the dancing took place in the forging aspect of creation.  Beating it into shape and strength makes it different than a blade that is hot forged.

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I was shocked that Rose Red imagined my reference to servitors implied a threat.  Even Monsnoleedra thought it could have been a threat.

 

My intent in mentioning  servitors  was to explain why I would not elucidate about some of the techniques-cum-tools I was taught.  These techniques have been handed down for centuries.  It was necessary in the old days for the Magister to kill to protect covine members and the very existence of the covine.

 

I am quite happy to discuss these matters with Monsnoleedra when he becomes a full member.  I look forward to interesting discussions in the Private Forum.

 

Imagine the consternation of guests, prospective members and new seekers if I mentioned the cruelty and horrors associated with acquiring servitors to enable the Magister to kill with impurity.  They would get a distorted view of the Trad Craft.  My concern was to consider this site.

 

Monsnoleedra is genuinely interested in our techniques-cum-tools but I couldn’t mention the details in the Public Forum.

 

The extant old covines in Essex only use a walking stick to wield destructive or constructive energy.  It is our only “tool”.

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anjeaunot - I really do understand.  I was just as shocked when my reference to being able to taste certain energy signatures was taken as a threat.  There was no threat given in my words or thoughts when I wrote my post.

 

There are some things that I don't/won't discuss in the private section of this forum as well.  Some things are just not for 'outside' consumption.  I'm sure we all understand that.

 

Quite honestly, I don't know if that would be a distorted idea or a more honest one.  There's a thread somewhere about 'Are trad witches more vengeful?'  Vengeful could be replaced with so many different words.  That we know, accept and at times embrace our Dark Sides sets Trads apart from most of what's currently out there in the public venues.  We'll do what we need to whether it's Light or Dark.  As in your example - we can bring Life into this world or end it if need be.  We protect our own.  And I do understand not wanting that out in areas where anyone cruising through while surfing can come across and read it.

 

 

 

I would love to see this thread get back on topic.  I think it could be a really good one.  I know it's one I'm interested in discussing.

 

A blade that is cold forged I seldom dance with either as the dancing took place in the forging aspect of creation.  Beating it into shape and strength makes it different than a blade that is hot forged.

 

 

 

How do you tell the difference and why does that difference matter?

 

Whoever danced the weapon into being has nothing to do with making that blade my own.  Creation of a blade is not the same as Bonding with the blade. 

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I was shocked that Rose Red imagined my reference to servitors implied a threat.  Even Monsnoleedra thought it could have been a threat.

 

My intent in mentioning  servitors  was to explain why I would not elucidate about some of the techniques-cum-tools I was taught.  These techniques have been handed down for centuries.  It was necessary in the old days for the Magister to kill to protect covine members and the very existence of the covine.

 

I am quite happy to discuss these matters with Monsnoleedra when he becomes a full member.  I look forward to interesting discussions in the Private Forum.

 

Imagine the consternation of guests, prospective members and new seekers if I mentioned the cruelty and horrors associated with acquiring servitors to enable the Magister to kill with impurity.  They would get a distorted view of the Trad Craft.  My concern was to consider this site.

 

Monsnoleedra is genuinely interested in our techniques-cum-tools but I couldn’t mention the details in the Public Forum.

 

The extant old covines in Essex only use a walking stick to wield destructive or constructive energy.  It is our only “tool”.

 

 

Thank you for clarifying the servitor statement.  The idea of constructs didn't bother me but suggesting kill or death magics sorts of sends alarms bells off for me.  That's one subject, death or kill, I'd not speak about in an open or closed forum but only in private pm's or on the phone only.  I do admit though on some levels it reminds me of some aspect of Stregia I was introduced to in my youth.

 

Hopefully you can answer but did the walking sticks your referring to have feet?  I've seen them with a metal counter weight as a footer but also an actual carved image of a foot that was placed on the bottom of staffs.  Never looked at the few I saw up close but was told they always had left feet on the, possibly due to the association of the left hand pathway though that is just guess work on my part. 

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How do you tell the difference and why does that difference matter?

 

Whoever danced the weapon into being has nothing to do with making that blade my own.  Creation of a blade is not the same as Bonding with the blade. 

 

The surface area and general appearance usually give it away.  Mostly cold forging in my experience is used on smaller blades.  Basically cold forging is taking a piece of iron and physically beating it into shape and form without ever allowing flame to touch its surface.  The metal is cold and hard and many times when i've seen them they are cold iron and very rough looking.  While I can't prove it also consider that iron is supposed to be lethal to members of the fae community and you can see how its usage is tied in at times.  Any heat that is generated within the iron comes from being pounded upon and the transfer of energy in the construction.

 

All your long blades are hot forged as far as I am aware of.  Makes the blade stronger and able to be folded from what I understand.  

 

Creation and bonding gets to be an iffy thing.  A lot of people had only one person they wold purchase blades from and the smithy had to agree to certain conditions.  For instance blood from the potential user wold be added to the molten steel so the blade would no longer desire that persons blood.  Many times a blade was rogue until it was both blooded and named but it couldn't be just any name but a name the sword gave to the smithy to identify it.  Some swords were deemed to have the spirit of a flame elemental placed in them so the welder would have to prove his / her will was stronger than that of the elemental in order to use the sword safely.  

 

Now that I think about it i've never heard of anything other than a flame elemental or human spirit brought to life in a sword. 

 

But I agree in general usage creation is not the same as bonding unless the creator is the same as the one who is bonding with the blade.

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I think it isn't the topic (dumbing down) itself, but how the topic was presented, the context and choice of words RoseRed.

 

Also I feel it is important to clarify that a group of people did not get banned.  I have  only been here for a few years, but in that time I have only seen one person get banned, the mods do not do it lightly and try hard to solve problems privately and discreetly.  The people who ended up leaving a few weeks ago did so on their own. No banning, and they are welcome to come back if they feel like doing so.

 

Now, back to tool dancing! ;)

Just for the record I absolutely do understand the concept you are talking about RR.  I have never heard the term "dancing with" before and I find it very poetic.  And I have seen musicians "dance" with their instruments, when their instrument is so familiar and such a part of them, that it is an extension of their bodies. You can sense it when they pick up their instrument and play.   Just like we spoke of with swordplay. I suppose it happens often with the "mundane" tools, when someone handles something so often and it becomes part of them.

I think that when I hold something I am using doing a working, that it is automatic, I touch it, it becomes an extension by intent.  The tool I use the most often is my body, tho.,when we are talking about tools such as wands and pointy things.  I just find no need for anything else.  I don't mean ingredients or materials such as bottles, pencils, whatever.  I feel those things are in an entirely different category.

 

To everyone---I thought there was a general consensus here that the term tools referred to things like athames, stangs, staves,swords, cups, cards, pendulums and other scrying instruments, that sort of thing.  Am I wrong or do I have to be specific when I use the term? 

 

This thread is proof enough that they still do.  And the 'past' is only in the last week or so. 

 

Can anyone here honestly deny that new seekers with strong personalities get jumped on?  It happened to me.  I've seen it happen to others since I got here and I've seen it play out over the older threads that I've read. 

 

What get's me the most about this thread is how people are freaking out over 'the dumbing down of witchcraft' yet how many posts are there where we've discussed this already - even in passing?  Bunches of them.  It's something we bitch about on a regular basis.  I don't understand why it's suddenly a problem in this thread.

 

One thing I noticed while reading through all of this is that those of us that have worked with pointy or sharp tools all seem to understand the concept of 'dancing' with them.  I don't understand why that is getting lost in all of this bullshit.

 

FFS - I made a post once where I said I could 'taste' certain people.  Which I can.  It's one of the ways in which I can sense a persons energy.  That was taken as a threat, my post was removed and it turned into a whole great big deal and yet now we're talking about using servitors to maim and kill?!?!?  Seriously?  Why was that not taken as a threat and removed?

 

It's no secret that MonSno and I are friends.  I'm the one that invited him here and anyone that's read the recent posts has probably figured that out already.  This isn't 'protecting or defending' my friend.  He can speak for himself and he has.  But the underlying problems that this forum has are still playing out right here - right now.  'Let's not talk about the past'?  Why not?  Except this isn't the past - this is right now and it's still happening.  The last little group that got banned were obviously not the entire problem because it's still happening.

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This thread is proof enough that they still do.  And the 'past' is only in the last week or so. 

 

Can anyone here honestly deny that new seekers with strong personalities get jumped on?  It happened to me.  I've seen it happen to others since I got here and I've seen it play out over the older threads that I've read. 

 

What get's me the most about this thread is how people are freaking out over 'the dumbing down of witchcraft' yet how many posts are there where we've discussed this already - even in passing?  Bunches of them.  It's something we bitch about on a regular basis.  I don't understand why it's suddenly a problem in this thread.

 

One thing I noticed while reading through all of this is that those of us that have worked with pointy or sharp tools all seem to understand the concept of 'dancing' with them.  I don't understand why that is getting lost in all of this bullshit.

 

FFS - I made a post once where I said I could 'taste' certain people.  Which I can.  It's one of the ways in which I can sense a persons energy.  That was taken as a threat, my post was removed and it turned into a whole great big deal and yet now we're talking about using servitors to maim and kill?!?!?  Seriously?  Why was that not taken as a threat and removed?

 

It's no secret that MonSno and I are friends.  I'm the one that invited him here and anyone that's read the recent posts has probably figured that out already.  This isn't 'protecting or defending' my friend.  He can speak for himself and he has.  But the underlying problems that this forum has are still playing out right here - right now.  'Let's not talk about the past'?  Why not?  Except this isn't the past - this is right now and it's still happening.  The last little group that got banned were obviously not the entire problem because it's still happening.

_________

 

I think that was figured out from the get go, that you are very supportive of his posts, and that's your privilege and choice of course.

 

Just to be clear, these people 'chose' to be non-members (if those are the ones you speak of), which is different than being banned. And with them, I'm sorry to say' went a lot of solid members who posted good stuff...just saying.

 

I don't think that seekers with strong personalities get jumped on, but they will be challenged on certain points if warranted, and I see nothing wrong with that.  However, if one comes across as arrogant, and a know it all, then they might get jumped on to a certain extent, by both members and other seekers.

 

I don't dance with swords. I have 'real' ones, I learned the mechanics of them, practiced with them a lot, which is how one makes a weapon truly part of oneself (or any tool for that matter), and I use them as they were mean't to be used. No, I don't go chopping heads off. I have nothing against dancing with a weapon if one chooses, but I would rather it remain a weapon, than just a dance tool.

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_________

 

I think that was figured out from the get go, that you are very supportive of his posts, and that's your privilege and choice of course.

 

Just to be clear, these people 'chose' to be non-members (if those are the ones you speak of), which is different than being banned. And with them, I'm sorry to say' went a lot of solid members who posted good stuff...just saying.

 

I don't think that seekers with strong personalities get jumped on, but they will be challenged on certain points if warranted, and I see nothing wrong with that.  However, if one comes across as arrogant, and a know it all, then they might get jumped on to a certain extent, by both members and other seekers.

 

I don't dance with swords. I have 'real' ones, I learned the mechanics of them, practiced with them a lot, which is how one makes a weapon truly part of oneself (or any tool for that matter), and I use them as they were mean't to be used. No, I don't go chopping heads off. I have nothing against dancing with a weapon if one chooses, but I would rather it remain a weapon, than just a dance tool.

 

 

Interesting, I bet Miyamoto Musashi would be pleased to know he's not using real swords because he described dancing with them as part of his book of five rings.  Heck I bet most of the groups that used dancing as a descriptor to define sword combat and perfection of those skill sets would be glad to know they didn't really use real swords or weapons. Heck I bet even those who practice Bojutsu would be proud to know they don't use real weapons or practice with them as real weapons.  Sorry myself I have a WWII Japanese enlisted Samurai sword, Katana type blade, a high grade set of short and long Katana blades and at one time a Scottish Claymore.

 

Weapon dances or dancing with ones weapons was quite common and still lingers as a term within many of the associations I am aware of.  And yes in each the weapon is considered a weapon and treated as such but the dance refines the persons skill with the weapon and makes it part of themselves.

 

Just because people equate dance today to some type of movement across a floor doesn't mean it always did or that its the only definition accepted.  But then maybe that's why it seems Miyamote said there are sword fencers and Masters of Strategy.

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