TobaccoFlower Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I was talking with a friend and the topic came up of how she weird she "must seem to the neighbors". And I got to thinking.... I imagine many people would see what we do and consider us batshit crazy. While we live in a more liberal, accepting world, witches have a history of being harshly judged, deemed insane, and the term witch was used to end many lives because it was an easy excuse to do so. I don't know of anyone personally who has gotten into serious trouble due to their witchy lifestyle, but I've read many news articles about people who have. So, I'm wondering... if you care to share, has anyone here gotten into legal issues because of their craft, or known someone who has? Also, in that event, what do you do? I worry about this being an issue in my future, particularly when I have children.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Don't advertise it. Teach your children what not to repeat to other people. Hide in plain sight. Know your neighbors well and make friends with them (people tend to accept eccentricity better if they actually like the person). If people do figure it out, say enough to imply you're new age which is much more accepted. Or even Wiccan which is an actual legal religion and therefore is protected by law. Don't brag about spells, don't scare people. Wear a cloak (not a literal cloth cloak). I had a friend with a young child (can't remember 5 or 6 or so) and the phone rang. Mom was in the shower so kid picked it up. The caller (who was mom's friend and hence mom later found out about the conversation) asked for mom - was told mom was in the shower. Caller then asked for dad - was told dad is in the shower with mommy. lol - but mom had a talk with child and explained that it's not polite to tell people about some personal things between mom and dad - just like you teach your kids not to take their clothes off in public because it's not polite - same rules... some things you just don't do outside of the family. Children are very capable of being taught what to and not to say. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jevne Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I suppose if you entered into some type of contractual arrangement with an individual and failed to deliver, you could be subject to civil action. I am not sure, as I do not engage in monetary transactions with my Craft. Others do, so they may have a different perspective. I would thinking knowing the laws in your area would be a good idea. I am wondering why you would think this would be a particular problem when you have children. Are you saying you would worry more about it when you have children or that it would be specifically related to your children? Just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TobaccoFlower Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 Michele - I have considered using Wicca as a guise, since they have more public protections. Jevne - I have always had a fear of having future children taken away because someone took something the wrong way. In the area I live, it's hard knocks if you aren't a branch of Christian, let alone a witch (oh be-jesus!). People in other parts of the world have their families disbanded or face death for the assumption of witchcraft. While the U.S. is different, people are court happy. I've seen people have protective services called on them for really idiotic things, like letting their kids run in the yard barefoot when the weather is nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jevne Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Ok, I am with Michele . . . keep your mouth shut and teach your children to do the same (or don't reveal things to them, until they can keep their mouths shut). . . if "caught", don't stand on your Witchy podium and claim persecution . . . smile and laugh it off. Witchcraft? Pfft . . . only whackos would accuse someone of something so silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wexler Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Michele - I have considered using Wicca as a guise, since they have more public protections. Jevne - I have always had a fear of having future children taken away because someone took something the wrong way. In the area I live, it's hard knocks if you aren't a branch of Christian, let alone a witch (oh be-jesus!). People in other parts of the world have their families disbanded or face death for the assumption of witchcraft. While the U.S. is different, people are court happy. I've seen people have protective services called on them for really idiotic things, like letting their kids run in the yard barefoot when the weather is nice. If I was planning on lying about myself to avoid persecution, I'd probably go with something like Pentecostalism or a fundamentalist Christian folk church. Some Christian traditions are not void of folk magic, which my current practice could pass for. Along with my upbringing it would be very plausible that I moved away from mainstream Christianity and found comfort in the arms of a smaller, weirder church. Considering the people passing judgment are not likely to smile upon Wicca in conservative areas, going for Christianity seems like it would be a safer bet. Although lying about being a part of a different religion is something I would think about for a long, long time before I did it. The consequences of doing so could be a lot higher than the usefulness of a cover story. There are many Witches who live with their children in conservative areas. There are ways to keep yourself safe and maintain your privacy, with and without informing your kids, without having to pass yourself off as being part of another religion. If this is a very big concern for you, have you considered moving to a more liberal area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jevne Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) There are many Witches who live with their children in conservative areas. There are ways to keep yourself safe and maintain your privacy, with and without informing your kids, without having to pass yourself off as being part of another religion. I understand the social ramifications of being or not being of a particular, mainstream religion, hence the don't advertise, but legal problems? I am not sure where the OP lives, but using religion (or lack thereof) to prosecute someone is illegal around here. I am trying to think of something that a person could do or not do that would lead to this type of outcome for their children. If your kids are fed, clothed, clean, provided with shelter, protected from harm, etc. . . . I don't see what anyone can do. Oh, they an accuse, I guess, but there are ways to make folks look like idiots. I know others feel differently and/or choose to be 'out' in their communities, but there is a reason for that whole 'secrecy' thing that is discussed frequently on the forum. Plausible deniability . . . Edited to add the obvious . . . A Witch would just cast a spell to keep others from causing them problems in the first place, especially if it is a legitimate concern. Edited March 9, 2014 by Jevne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseRed Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I did. When I was divorcing my exhusband he brought it up in the divorce/custody/restraining order crap. According to him I "threatened spells of witchcraft against him". It was utterly non-climactic. It was in the paperwork and everyone in the courtroom just ignored it. He got tired of waiting for that specific charge to come up so he brought it up himself. The judge just rolled his eyes at him and told him that he was not going to address that. At that time I lived in a smaller city with a large fringe population. I can't even imagine how differently that could've turned out if it happened where I life now. I'm way out in the country right smack in the buckle of the bible belt. I keep my mouth shut. I taught my kid to do the same. What I do, what I believe - is no one's business but my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 My children are a big part of the reason I keep my mouth shut, hide in plain sight, etc. I have heard stories in which people in child custody proceedings have used the fact that a parent is pagan or a witch against them, but I don;t know how it turned out or how true the stories were. But that is the only legal thing I have heard about. I have heard about people being threatened with child services for being a pagan--not sure if the person was a witch--and for including their children in doing ritual, but nothing ever came of it. I think if your instincts are yelling at you, and you're feel anxious about your possible future children's safety, then you ought to consider staying in the shadows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wexler Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I just considered that if someone is entirely concerned with legal repercussions, it may pay off to compensate a lawyer in your area for consultation. When legalities come in to question, anecdotal stories and word of mouth will hardly compare to real legal advice. As nice as it is to consult other Witches, I am afraid I would be hard-pressed to follow their legal counsel if the safety of my (hypothetical) children was at stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelian Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I think we've discussed this sort of thing over a number of threads. The only legal troubles I can see arising from witchcraft are: 1. If you grow poisons, keep them under lock and key, as we have more or less established that the owner of them is legally liable for anything that happens with them. 2. I've heard you can get in trouble for menacing people by leaving shit on their property(poppets, etc), but I've never heard of this actually happening. 3. Collecting feathers and whatnot will land you in trouble, if caught, as in certain places collecting falcon feathers or whatever is prohibited. 4. If one provided natural remedies and someone had a poor reaction to the preparation. I imagine there are other possibilities as well, but as long one uses discretion the risk is probably rather low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 ...I think if your instincts are yelling at you, and you're feel anxious about your possible future children's safety, then you ought to consider staying in the shadows. Wear a cloak.... And if you don't know how to cloak your activities, learn now prior to having children. Cloaking is both magical and mundane, IMO. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jevne Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) In fairness, my first response was . . . what wouldn't you do to protect your children? Hide, lie, cheat, maim, kill, etc.? Why is this even an issue? Thanks for the reminder, Wexler, that the OP was speaking of hypothetical, future children. I am wondering about these "news articles" that were referenced. Were those real Witches in those scenarios? I am not saying a real Witch is immune to these types of issues, as has been mentioned, but in my opinion, he or she would be a bit more cautious than the average person. You cannot trust anyone. Edited March 10, 2014 by Jevne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseRed Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You cannot trust anyone. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raineylane Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I haven't had legal problems but there was a time when I thought it could be a possibility. When my son was young he was oblivious to the fact that I was a witch. I carefully kept things under wraps. But as he got older and a little wiser he started noticing things and questioned things. I carefully explained to him the situation and how it was very personal and that it was not prudent to discuss it with anyone lest there be complications. (Hubby and I owned our own business and lived in a very Christian area. If anyone even suspected that I was a witch, it would ruin our business and income since our customers were all local.) Son was excellent at keeping his mouth shut until he started dating a girl who claimed to be Wiccan. I guess he was trying to find some common ground with her and spilled the beans. This girl came up to me one day and said something about how "cool" it was that she and I were both witches. Imagine my shock! My cover was blown. I never commented on her comment, other than to say something like, "That's a strange thing to say," and walked out of the room, never admitting or denying it. But, my biggest worry was that she was a young teenager, living with her very fundy Christian grandmother and I was afraid that if she and my son broke up, she would say something to her grandmother which might get the Dept. of Family and Children Services, called on me. Nothing like that ever happened when they everntually broke up but I was sweating bullets over it. (I did have a serious talk with my son after the fact and explained that even telling his girlfriend could cause serious problems if the wrong people found out. He has kept his mouth shut since.) It never occured to me that he would end up telling a girlfriend so I never specifically addressed that, until after the fact. I know what you mean about living in the bible belt, and even though I doubt there is much of anything they can do legally to take your kids away, based on the fact that you are a witch, there is still the possibility that certain people would embellish or outright lie about you to the proper authorities if they had a mind to. My sister had difficulties with her ex-mother-in-law lying to the authorities and had DFACS show up at her house about once a month on groundless accusations of child abuse. They never found her to be in violation of anything, but there were reports filed. My advice, considering where you live, would be to stay in the shadows, magically protect yourself, keep things out of sight from prying eyes, keep your own mouth shut and if and when your kids become aware that you are a witch, explain to them the importance of secrecy. I wouldn't and haven't ever admitted to being a witch to anyone else that I know, personally, even if that person claims to be a witch. That just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseRed Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I know what you mean about living in the bible belt, and even though I doubt there is much of anything they can do legally to take your kids away, based on the fact that you are a witch, there is still the possibility that certain people would embellish or outright lie about you to the proper authorities if they had a mind to. Or burn your house down while you're sleeping or put rattlesnakes in your car. Or completely vandalize your yard, house and windows because you put out too many decorations for Halloween and the local preachers made a point of pointing it out. People are fucking crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raineylane Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Or burn your house down while you're sleeping or put rattlesnakes in your car. Or completely vandalize your yard, house and windows because you put out too many decorations for Halloween and the local preachers made a point of pointing it out. People are fucking crazy. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TobaccoFlower Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Sorry I havent replied in a while! I do plan on moving to a more liberal area, but even in areas like that there are still nutter butters. Jevne- I do not know what percentage of people who face witchcraft legal trouble are actually witches. While witches do have access to a level protection that many people do not, we are not immune to misfortune or getting thrown under the bus. Also: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635154734/Fired-teacher-tells-of-witch-gossip.html?pg=allHere's a more silly one....yet, he did still get fired: And much more serious international affairs: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/woman-accused-of-witchcraft-burned-alive-1.1321185 Rainey and Rose - Harassment is indeed more common then actual legal trouble. People are assholes :\ Rainey, I'm glad you didnt lose your business! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TobaccoFlower Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Wexler - A lawyer consultation may not be a bad idea later in life... Also good to dot your i's and cross your t's, no? Aurelian - For the bird feather comment: you can face serious legal issues for collecting feathers. Even if you, say, hit a bit with your car and it got stuck. If it's a song bird or bird of prey, you're technically not allowed to touch it and thus can't remove it, period. Many areas are not likely to enforce this, but you never know.You brought up good points with herbs. I tend to keep my remedies to myself. Lynn - I do believe the shadows if where I will stay. It's treated me well so far. Edited March 10, 2014 by Ravenshaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticWitch Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 From a legal aspect not involving children, it seems pretty simple to me. If someone were to threaten legal action against me for my lifestyle, or accuse me of a crime directly related to my Craft, I'd simply shrug and say "Supply tangible evidence that a judge would accept as being legitimate for a case against me, and I'll see you in court". Seems like a strategic way to capitalize on the mindset in less-religious communities that practicing witchcraft is nothing but harmless delusion (thereby making the accuser look crazy in front of the court for correctly believing in what is very real). That being said, this approach would only work if no mundane crimes were committed that offer tangible proof (trespassing, stealing, etc.) for implementation into my craftings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solanaceae Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) I myself have never had any legal issues as a result of my craft. I am careful, and I do not advertise my beliefs. As my children have gotten to an age where they have more questions, and started developing their own abilities, I have begun to talk to them more openly. I also told them they need to keep the information to themselves, and made sure they know why. Rainey, you bring up a good point about what can happen to teens when hormones get in the way, and they are trying to impress someone they are attracted to. I will be sure to address this possability. I am fortunate to live in a fairly tolerant and multicultural area, but even here of course we have our share of crazy fanatics. A co- worker of mine was just telling a bunch of us that at her other job, one of the girls that she works with accused her of casting a voodoo curse on her. She told the management that she had told her she was going to curse her, and that since that time, her dog died, her car broke down and she got kicked out of her home. My co-worker says she said no such thing, but the management had a meeting with her. So far, nothing has come of it, but just the fact that they took it seriously enough to meet with her about it is concerning. Edited March 10, 2014 by Solanaceae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jevne Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 A co- worker of mine was just telling a bunch of us that at her other job, one of the girls that she works with accused her of casting a voodoo curse on her. She told the management that she had told her she was going to curse her, and that since that time, her dog died, her car broke down and she got kicked out of her home. My co-worker says she said no such thing, but the management had a meeting with her. So far, nothing has come of it, but just the fact that they took it seriously enough to meet with her about it is concerning. If a threat of any kind was made or perceived, the management is obligated to address it with the individuals involved. In order to cast a 'voodoo curse', the co-worker would technically have to be a voodoo practitioner. But that is besides the point . . . Hopefully, she had the good sense to act shocked and laugh it off as if the accuser were a complete lunatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelian Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Within the hoodoo tradition, there is a plethora of workings to "Keep the Law Off!" If anyone is interested, there is some good info out there on these workings and techniques! I hope this may help those who are worried about such things, like those of you who live in the bible belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseRed Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'm not worried about the law. I worry about my hypocritical fundamentalist neighbors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloe Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Within the hoodoo tradition, there is a plethora of workings to "Keep the Law Off!" If anyone is interested, there is some good info out there on these workings and techniques! I hope this may help those who are worried about such things, like those of you who live in the bible belt. Good point. Hypocritical fundamentalist neighbors are a problem, but what they usually do is call the law and try and get you in some sort of legal trouble. I saw people in my church do it when I was a kid. Some new age traveller types bought a bit of land and moved a trailer onto it in our area. Some people in the church called child services and said a bunch of things they "thought" might be happening because of the parents lifestyle. In some areas this is enough to get the parents investigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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