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Herbs for depression and to aid in memory


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#21 Aurelian

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 10:03 AM

The future of treatment for 'depression' lies in biological psychiatry, with combinations of drugs tailored to your genetic makeup.  The best drugs available mimic endogenous ligands and amino acids, at the moment, but that is slowly changing.  I spend at least an hour a day reviewing new neuroscience literature, it is so incredibly fascinating.  

 

Alas, our understanding of the brain is so lacking at this point that we know almost nothing.  LOL

 

Case in point, the protein responsible for communication between all neurons was *just* discovered.

 

Anti-depressants are coming a long way.  I have a deep hatred for SSRI/SNRI medications, personally, which I assume is what most here are most familiar with.  Their use and efficacy are not in any way supported in the available literature.  It's just that drug development is somewhat expensive, and the profit margins so high for these drugs.... of course they do help some people, but that assumes a correct diagnosis has been given in the first place, which is questionable in some cases, but--guaranteed, if you walk into a GP's office and complain of depression, you will walk out with a script.  Doctors script them with a slingshot!

 

At any rate, it is utterly futile to provide suggestions as to what will work for you, and as it has been noted before, we are not qualified to do so.

 

The best available pharmacotherapy in treatment-resistant depression is ketamine therapy.  Insurance is not paying for it right now, however, and the infusions can cost sometimes 900 dollars a treatment.  But, a compounding pharmacy can help you out for about 30 dollars or so, depending on a number of different things.

 

Who knows if you need it, however?  It's just interesting as a side-note, there are lots of things available!  Agomelatine is a new-ish drug as well, that seems to be so low in side-effects and produces no withdrawal, so addiction isn't an issue.

 

At any rate, depression is so damn hard, but yes, there are loads of options available and new discoveries are made daily, so don't give up hope.  The thing is, treatment must be sought in the first place to do you any good at all.

 

Good luck, hun!


"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning."  - Cormac McCarthy


#22 Wyrd

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 08:49 PM

Theres NO chemical imbalance that causes depression - Don't believe me, just google ANY pharmaceutical med and see for yourself, it's in the small print. They use crap like "it's thought" and "we don't know what causes depression.....but" If they don't feckin know, how can they feckin treat it.

 

Just sayin!

 

.


Edited by Wyrd, 30 November 2013 - 08:49 PM.

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#23 Aurelian

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:14 PM

No, all the neurotransmitters work as a system, it isn't a 1 + 1 deal.  Lack of GABA allows Glutamate to cause seizures, dopamine morphisms result is wildly different behaviors, etc.  

 

We cannot say that any given system is responsible for depression because it simply isn't known.  That doesn't mean that symptomatic relief of depression cannot be achieved by a variety of different treatments, because they can.  That is very well established.  

 

How any given system affects other chemicals downstream and how that translates into various disorders is simply not known.  Certain things can be inferred, and while plausible, cannot be assumed.


"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning."  - Cormac McCarthy


#24 Lynn

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 03:55 AM

No, all the neurotransmitters work as a system, it isn't a 1 + 1 deal.  Lack of GABA allows Glutamate to cause seizures, dopamine morphisms result is wildly different behaviors, etc.  

 

We cannot say that any given system is responsible for depression because it simply isn't known.  That doesn't mean that symptomatic relief of depression cannot be achieved by a variety of different treatments, because they can.  That is very well established.  

 

How any given system affects other chemicals downstream and how that translates into various disorders is simply not known.  Certain things can be inferred, and while plausible, cannot be assumed.

Exactly, relief of symptoms can be achieved. Unfortunately it just cannot be cured yet, it is only a matter of maintenance, which although I am personally grateful for at least the relief of symptoms, it is also very frustrating because I would rather it go away completely.  My Dr is very frank about how they are still trying to figure out what Depression *is*, the whole system in our minds is so beyond complex, and how it is so different for each individual who has depression as far as the grouping of receptors affected. They don't understand why it happens, what it is exactly, but they are working on trying to understand. 


'When in danger, when in doubt, Run in circles, scream and shout" Robert Heinlein.
"Women and cats will do as they please, men and dogs need to relax and get used to the idea." Robert Heinlein

"In Wildness is the preservation of the World." Henry David Thoreau


#25 Wyrd

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 06:39 PM

Maybe by thinking outside the box, we could entertain the idea that Big-Pharma are barking up the wrong tree!!! after all their top brains have been at it for decades, and still gotten nowhere! As for "managing" or "controlling" the disease, just tell that to the families of victims of violence. Columbine, Aurora and Sandy Hook immediately come to mind; in all three the feckers were on mind altering prescription psychiatric drugs of various types.

"Until recently, scientists assumed they knew how fluoxetine/Prozac worked. The story was simple: depression results from a neurotransmitter imbalance in the brain, in which patients suffer from a shortage of chemical happiness. The little blue pills cheer us up because they give the brain what it has been missing – a dose of serotonin. Experiments have since shown that lowering people's serotonin levels does not make them depressed, nor does it worsen their symptoms if they are already depressed." Now there's a feckin surprise!

it's also clear that anti-depressants are often disturbingly ineffective and, in many clinical trials, appear little better than a placebo. Again you can look this up - Google be thy friend.

Bottom line - Big-Pharma has too much invested in their cash cow to find real answers to real problems. They know that many folks will be on multiple meds for a great many years - cha-ching.


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#26 Aurelian

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:54 PM

Big pharma has great financial incentive to push drugs they have spent a lot of money developing.  That isn't in question, it's the most profitable industry in America.  Most of the research is bought from universities, who are not responsible for the way it is used.  The problem is that doctors are not referencing those studies nor understanding the drugs prior to prescribing them.

 

As for this business about the perpetrators of those crimes...are you fecking kidding me?  This is a red herring.  They are representative of .000000000000000000000001% of everyone on psych meds in the nation.  Would you prefer that we don't attempt to medicate and improve the lives of those with mental illness?  

 

As for treating depression, first it needs to be properly diagnosed, then the patient should be trialed on a variety of drugs, not until one is found to be effective, but until the *most* effective one is found.  This is not being done.

 

I addressed SSRI/SNRI's in my previous post.  They are effective for some people.  Just not a great many.  They are being improperly prescribed.  There are drugs far more effective, some with side-effects or requiring monitoring with blood tests, so are far less often used.  This is slowly changing.  Go medicine.

 

As for google, well google doesn't necessarily provide.  That would require that I read a lot of pop science, which isn't a good use of my time.  I spent a lot of money for a big, fancy education in a subject which is closely allied to this one.

 

If my words are not clear on this, I am not sure how to get the point across.  You do have certain points which are valid, but....

 

Neuroscience as a general field has come a long way in this certain regard, and makes leaps and bounds every day.  The point is, there is hope for people with depression.  


"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning."  - Cormac McCarthy


#27 Aurelian

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:07 AM

Last thing.  Richard Costaldo, I went to school with.  He was one of the victims of the Columbine shootings.  He's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.  I live 10 miles from the shootings that happened in Aurora.  Think deep before you engage me on this.  I lived that.   It's not a joke to me.  That issue is local to me, I've been there.  Just sayin--cha-ching!


"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning."  - Cormac McCarthy


#28 Wyrd

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:10 AM

Big-Pharma only develops drugs that are profitable and patentable. There's no profit in something natural that works, it can't be patented. Period. Big- Pharma, Big-Agra and Big-Tech fund only University studies that will lead to profit for them. Ask any grad student and they will tell you that funds are only available to "team players" who's research will directly benefit the funder, simple economics, nothing more, nothing less.

Doctors are taught a very restrictive form of medicine to which they must promise to uphold under Penalty of losing their licence to practice, not to mention loosing their lucrative income and ability to pay back the hundreds of thousands it cost to train in the first place! To imply that doctors are too stupid understand or reluctant to keep up with the latest findings after spending twelve plus years training is absurd. They are required to continue ongoing studies and to stay current and keep their licence to practice. However almost all of this information is provided by.....................,.wait for it.........................Big-Pharma. Another feckin surprise!

Your math is a bit off, and you may want to check that figure! those are only the big headline makers exploited to try and squash our 2nd amendment rights. Many thousands of crimes are committed every day under the influence of mind altering meds, Methylphenidate (Ritalin) is a potent central nervous system stimulant derived from amphetamine which cause paranoia, hallucinations, delusions among others, and is prescribed to many thousands of people. You may want to talk to a cop and get his take on a drugs relationship to crime. Hmmmmm..........................

There's one small snafu to this scenario, Big-Pharma has admitted many times and in writing that the have no fecking clue what causes depression, so so how the feck can anyone properly diagnose it. Followed by lets experiment on you to see which comes first; profits, misery, suffering, loss of physical health, and possibly death, directly or indirectly. Yum sign me up!!

Vitamin D3 and to a lesser extent D2 (yes you do need D2 in minuscule amounts,which is adequately provided for in meats, fruits and vegetables) and B vitamins have been proven to help many with depression, cheaply and with zero side effects (as in none what so ever). Go nature!!

Google should be considered a friend, and as such should be treated like the real thing; a great ally with the potential to do the proverbial!! at any given time. That said google has the best, algorithms, indexing and spiders bar none. If it exists on the web and is not restricted by government; google will find it. You have to understand that there is a need to use the right search term and that ads and misinformation (paid for by........you guessed it) gets top billing and will appear first to deter those pesky questioners.

Sound like you have an agenda or a vested interest in the Big-Boys!!!!!!

Your words are ringing loud and clear, your pro-pharma and I'm not. They have had their best minds working on it for decades with an eye on making a huge profit, while squashing real alternative research and development. Just look how they ridicule anything that is competition for their profit margin!! There are and have been real solutions in the alternative medicine arena, if only Big-Pharma would let go of their stranglehold.

All of this really distracts from the topic of this thread, which is "Herbs for depression and to aid in memory" which have already been mentioned by others in this thread. I feel that it is not as simple take this herb and you'll be fixed, but more of a multi-faceted approach. Herbs can help, vitamins too, but there are others, enzymes, amino's and probiotics should also be considered. Along with a change in diet/lifestyle.


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#29 Wyrd

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:23 AM

Last thing.  Richard Costaldo, I went to school with.  He was one of the victims of the Columbine shootings.  He's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.  I live 10 miles from the shootings that happened in Aurora.  Think deep before you engage me on this.  I lived that.   It's not a joke to me.  That issue is local to me, I've been there.  Just sayin--cha-ching!

 

 

Get off you high horse, nobodies engaging you in anything - the shooters in those incidents were flying on pharmaceuticals, legally prescribed and dosed pharmaceuticals! is all.

 

Accept that I have a different opinion to you - nothing more.

 

And while we are in a pissing contest, I stood eight city blocks from WTC and watched 2,606 people perish - but what the feck does that have to do with herbs for depression.


Edited by Wyrd, 02 December 2013 - 01:23 AM.

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#30 Jevne

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:30 AM

:popcorn:  Looking at the actual scientific research on depression (diagnosis, treatment, prognosis, etc.), you are both right on many points. 

 

I am enjoying the conversation from a professional, psychological standpoint, but . . . Witchcraft?

 

 

 

 



#31 Aurelian

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:30 AM

You know, I'll get back to this later.  But for now, you can fuck RIGHT off.


"The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning."  - Cormac McCarthy


#32 Lynn

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:07 AM

 

If you compare to the way depression is treated these days  to say back in the 40s(and just by the way it is actually acknowledged, and not just blown off as being "all in your head) there's a big difference. They have made lots of progress.  Again, different people react differently to different drugs.  And not just prescribed medications, but also talk therapy, taking things like Foilc acid, discussing exercise and diet, getting enough sunlight, tons and tons of variables.  The hard thing is finding what works for you.  And drugs are not always part of the maintenance.

 

And for the record? When it comes to pure scientific research google sucks.  Sure the info is out there, but wading through all the baloney is more time than I have.  Yeah the Pharma. companies have money on the mind, but that doesn't mean the medications are not helping.   I don;t agree with the placebo affect argument you used. I wish it were true! Then I would not have had to try so many different medications, had to deal with the ones that were NOT a good fit, would not have to deal with plateauing, etc etc.   And what about the folks who had depression so badly they couldn't get out of bed until they went on medication that worked for them?  They got their lives back.  So yeah it does work for people.  Pointing the finger at  people who freaked out in a big way and killed as support to your view is really not realistic; what about the hundreds who are being helped?   Unfortunately the news rarely focuses on them and some of the small personal triumphs in their lives (that medication has helped bring about), small daily things that others just cruise through as a matter of course. :)


'When in danger, when in doubt, Run in circles, scream and shout" Robert Heinlein.
"Women and cats will do as they please, men and dogs need to relax and get used to the idea." Robert Heinlein

"In Wildness is the preservation of the World." Henry David Thoreau


#33 Lynn

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:14 AM

Get off you high horse, nobodies engaging you in anything - the shooters in those incidents were flying on pharmaceuticals, legally prescribed and dosed pharmaceuticals! is all.

 

Accept that I have a different opinion to you - nothing more.

 

And while we are in a pissing contest, I stood eight city blocks from WTC and watched 2,606 people perish - but what the feck does that have to do with herbs for depression.

 

 

 

Ummmm---you brought it up, he responded. 


'When in danger, when in doubt, Run in circles, scream and shout" Robert Heinlein.
"Women and cats will do as they please, men and dogs need to relax and get used to the idea." Robert Heinlein

"In Wildness is the preservation of the World." Henry David Thoreau


#34 Wyrd

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 10:49 AM

Ummmm---you brought it up, he responded. 

 

 

Ummmm - What relevance does living ten miles from the Aurora incident have on the discussion?

 

                 How does attending the same school as one of the Columbine shooting victims have any relevance to the fact that the perpetrators were doped up on properly prescribed psychiatric pharmaceuticals?

 

 

Nothing.................I think


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The mind is like a parachute, it only works when It's open

#35 Wyrd

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 10:51 AM

You know, I'll get back to this later.  But for now, you can fuck RIGHT off.

 

RIGHT back at ya :wink:


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#36 Wyrd

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 11:09 AM

If you compare to the way depression is treated these days  to say back in the 40s(and just by the way it is actually acknowledged, and not just blown off as being "all in your head) there's a big difference. They have made lots of progress.  Again, different people react differently to different drugs.  And not just prescribed medications, but also talk therapy, taking things like Foilc acid, discussing exercise and diet, getting enough sunlight, tons and tons of variables.  The hard thing is finding what works for you.  And drugs are not always part of the maintenance.

 

And for the record? When it comes to pure scientific research google sucks.  Sure the info is out there, but wading through all the baloney is more time than I have.  Yeah the Pharma. companies have money on the mind, but that doesn't mean the medications are not helping.   I don;t agree with the placebo affect argument you used. I wish it were true! Then I would not have had to try so many different medications, had to deal with the ones that were NOT a good fit, would not have to deal with plateauing, etc etc.   And what about the folks who had depression so badly they couldn't get out of bed until they went on medication that worked for them?  They got their lives back.  So yeah it does work for people.  Pointing the finger at  people who freaked out in a big way and killed as support to your view is really not realistic; what about the hundreds who are being helped?   Unfortunately the news rarely focuses on them and some of the small personal triumphs in their lives (that medication has helped bring about), small daily things that others just cruise through as a matter of course. :smile:

 

For the record I didn't say what you are quoting above, you did.

 

As for Google - if you want to do serious research you need to use their specialized portals; Google Scholar Library; http://scholar.google.com and Google Research Areas & Publications; http://research.google.com/pubs/papers.html

                         To name just two, there are more if you really want to look!


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The mind is like a parachute, it only works when It's open

#37 Mountain Witch

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:36 PM

TIME OUT. This conversation has devolved from the OP. There will be NO further discussion of pharmaceuticals and their industry here. Go back to topic or post nothing further.


For purposes of action nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought combined with energy of will.
~ Henri Frederic Amiel

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#38 Mountain Witch

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 05:33 PM

A timely and interesting article: http://www.herbgeek....are-strategies/


For purposes of action nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought combined with energy of will.
~ Henri Frederic Amiel

You can access my blog and get autographed copies of my books through my website


#39 Ceres

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 09:45 PM

A timely and interesting article: http://www.herbgeek....are-strategies/

-----
Love it! Thanks!!!



#40 Lynn

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 03:47 PM

Ummmm - What relevance does living ten miles from the Aurora incident have on the discussion?

 

                 How does attending the same school as one of the Columbine shooting victims have any relevance to the fact that the perpetrators were doped up on properly prescribed psychiatric pharmaceuticals?

 

 

Nothing.................I think

Doesn't change my point.  You brought it up, he responded.


'When in danger, when in doubt, Run in circles, scream and shout" Robert Heinlein.
"Women and cats will do as they please, men and dogs need to relax and get used to the idea." Robert Heinlein

"In Wildness is the preservation of the World." Henry David Thoreau