Witches in the Swimmer Manuscript

[Panis_Ramey]

I've only started reading the swimmer manuscript. so far its a guide on native american herbology, ceremonies and other supernatural things like ghosts and demons. the story is it was written by a wise native man who had the name "swimmer"

 

this is an excerpt from what was written about witches:

 

 

Witches

The most dreaded of these human disease causers are the watches.

Not that their activities and the results of these are very much different

from those of the "man-killers" (see p. 33); the latter, however,

only "work against us" for very sound and obvious reasons, e. g.,

because we have insulted them, poked fun at them, quarreled with

them, or have given them offense in one way or another; at worst,

when trying to kill us, they may act as agents of some enemy of ours,

but at any rate there is usually this "comforting" consideration about

it, that we are aware and conscious of the motives of their activities,

and that usually we have only ourselves and our conduct to blame.

Being careful and courteous in our dealings with "man-killers" may

considerably diminish the risk of being harmed from their quarter.

Moreover, counteracting their evil machinations is not so hopeless a

task as to fight witchcraft.

The witches are usually referred to as tsiktli' or as so-no-'yi

a'ne-Do-''i "they walk about during the night." The meaning of

tsiktli' is Kterally "hooting owl," but since this night bird is considered

as a bird of HI omen, and because of the mysterious occult power

ascribed to it, moreover because it indulges in its activities only during

the night as the witches do, the word has been extended to mean

"witch."

A witch is held to be a human being, male or female, who is a

"powerful wizard " (aDa"'"w€!i', aDa"'"w€a'yu') such as a medicine man

may become who has "got the utmost" (see p. 87), but the semantic

 

and especially the emotional value given to the word, always convej^s

concepts expressing baseness, meanness, slyness, an activity" of an

insidious, nefarious, deleterious nature.

 

I'd like to see what others think on the subject ??? or if anyone has more knowledge regarding the manuscript ???

Edited May 14, 2013 by Panaceum

[Michele]

...and because of the mysterious occult power

ascribed to it, moreover because it indulges in its activities only during

the night as the witches do, the word has been extended to mean

"witch."...

 

This part I very much don't agree with. An owl may very well indulge in what it does only at night, but a witch doesn't. Many night workings that I know of relate to the dead, or are workings that are hooded/cloaked. And when do you cloak something? - usually when you're up to no good and want no one to know about it, lol. Many witch workings can be and are done during the day. And perhaps that kind of thinking only adds to this assumption that all witches are "bad" or intent on harm.

 

 

A witch is held to be a human being, male or female, who is a

"powerful wizard " (aDa"'"w€!i', aDa"'"w€a'yu') such as a medicine man

may become who has "got the utmost" (see p. 87), but the semantic

 

and especially the emotional value given to the word, always convej^s

concepts expressing baseness, meanness, slyness, an activity" of an

insidious, nefarious, deleterious nature. Again relating the witch to the cloak of darkness, which is not always correct.

 

I'd like to see what others think on the subject ??? or if anyone has more knowledge regarding the manuscript ???

 

M

 

P.S. - This also smacks, to me, of Christian-influenced depiction of witches. It would be interesting to find out the date the manuscript was written. If it was after Xtian introduction to the world at large. Just the word witch - was that even used prior to Christianity? Xtianity has had a far-reaching hand into our common culture, including that of witches. Just look at some of the witch-trials and the Christian influence of the very confessions by the witches themselves. Influenced by the morals and culture they lived in. "Consorting with the Devil" - I'll bet that prior to Xtianity there was a much different belief even among "witches" themselves regarding who and what they were "consorting" with. And I think this Xtian influence is much reflected into many of the modern crafts today, reconstructed or otherwise.

 

M

Edited May 14, 2013 by Michele

[Panis_Ramey]

Some Native American tribes have never been friendly to witches long before Christianity, many christian missionaries and priests were killed because certain tribes believed them to be evil sorcerers inflicting disease upon the land. They were half right I cant imagine how many diseases the European colonists brought with them. I remember Iroquois being one that didn't tolerate witches, they had a method of killing witches that involved splitting their heads with a hot ax. Witches in Native American lore were believed to practice an inverted parody of the medicine circle, a lot like the black mass of Europe. kidnap children to use their corpses in spells along with usual things people blame us for. There seems to be a universal hatred of witches that transcends religion.

[Michele]

Or perhaps a universal fear that translates into hatred....

 

M

[anjeaunot]

I don't believe these comments have a Christian overtone as Michelle suspects.

 

Tony Hillerman's books about the Navajo police illustrate he authentic age-old fear that the Navajo had of the night walkers - the witches.

 

His authoritative opinions certainly indicate that witches were feared long before the Europeans arrived.

[Athena]

This is what I know of the swimmer manuscript, the original writings by the medicine man where lost. James mooney an anthropologist had rewritten them and edited out a lot of information not to mention he was translating from Cherokee writing which I can tell you is very difficult to decipher. Then Mooney died and his unpublished manuscript landed on some one else's desk they then went to Cherokee country to try and edit it basicly by reading what Mooney had written then asking if it was correct of Cherokee elders. IMO it probably has some accurate information but even the smithonian has agreed its not accurate and since the supposed written book by a Cherokee who during that time period wouldn't have been written the way mooney wrote it like putting recipies in a nice order which wouldn't have been an order Natives at that time would have used and it was supposedly a day book 240 pages only half of which where filled and one thing I can absolutely tell you is every book ever written by natives of that time where usually about half filled with detailed drawings not writing and your left with maybe 70 pages of difficult to decipher hieroglyphic style writings. This is why it isn't exactly hailed as a accurate portrayal by the Cherokee nation and in Native American studies we only spent a couple days discussing it. I do find it really interesting though because it is one of the few things written during that time period in an effort to save Native American history and for that alone I have great respect for those who worked very hard to gather as accurate information as they could during very difficult times. Mooney also tried to get the Cherokee help with medicines and decent food and shelter because they where dying so fast he was worried all information would be lost.

 

 

I do think there are some really interesting things in the swimmer manuscript but I view it with skepticism in many aspects. That said the Cherokee deffinatly do view witches with a lot of fear and many wont even utter the word for fear of attracting them. Some tribes are far more afraid of witchcraft than others and the Cherokee and Navaho are definitely in the more afraid category while the Apache and Cheyenne are more interested in using it. This is an area I have studied in depth and one I am lucky enough I get to debate with my hubby's uncle a collage professor of Native studies. I can't tell you how many early Native American books where lost heck even books written by non natives where usually mislaid and have never been seen again. I am not a professor obviously and I have no doubt that there are some who hail the swimmer manuscripts as completely accurate but I just can't and most who have studied its history feel pretty much the same way.

 

[Whiterose]

Witches

The most dreaded of these human disease causers are the watches.

Not that their activities and the results of these are very much different

from those of the "man-killers" (see p. 33); the latter, however,

only "work against us" for very sound and obvious reasons, e. g.,

because we have insulted them, poked fun at them, quarreled with

them, or have given them offense in one way or another; at worst,

when trying to kill us, they may act as agents of some enemy of ours,

but at any rate there is usually this "comforting" consideration about

it, that we are aware and conscious of the motives of their activities,

and that usually we have only ourselves and our conduct to blame.

Being careful and courteous in our dealings with "man-killers" may

considerably diminish the risk of being harmed from their quarter.

Moreover, counteracting their evil machinations is not so hopeless a

task as to fight witchcraft.

The witches are usually referred to as tsiktli' or as so-no-'yi

a'ne-Do-''i "they walk about during the night." The meaning of

tsiktli' is Kterally "hooting owl," but since this night bird is considered

as a bird of HI omen, and because of the mysterious occult power

ascribed to it, moreover because it indulges in its activities only during

the night as the witches do, the word has been extended to mean

"witch."

A witch is held to be a human being, male or female, who is a

"powerful wizard " (aDa"'"w€!i', aDa"'"w€a'yu') such as a medicine man

may become who has "got the utmost" (see p. 87), but the semantic

 

and especially the emotional value given to the word, always convej^s

concepts expressing baseness, meanness, slyness, an activity" of an

insidious, nefarious, deleterious nature.

 

 

This idea of evil man killing witches and the Native American fear of them keeps reappearing for me this week. Especially this word "tsiktli'".

 

I do think past cultures whether Christian or not used special names to discriminate between a magical healer and a magical poisoner/killer. Whether or not we have adopted that word does not change the meaning it was originally given, and we should keep that in mind when reading old works or trying to understand the past.

[Whiterose]

I found a couple links that some of you may find interesting.

 

This book goes in to how Native American tribes, mostly the Cherokee view witches and how they are different from their healers or medicine men. Also the distinction they make between witches and sorcerers. Page 6 (as it wont let me copy and paste) has some great information for my point. ( Although I see that they do quote this Mooney fellow alot Athena ;) )

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=LJd2MqecZpEC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=cherokee+witches&source=bl&ots=GI-xE9kQ7I&sig=NEiLiSyYMm0bJwML6kosrThf1iE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rbGTUeiFMM7-rAeouYCIAQ&ved=0CGkQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

This site I found a few interesting tidbits as well that makes a point of separating witches, killer witches, and medicine men.

 

 

Very basic to the Cherokee belief system is the premise that good is rewarded, while evil is punished. Even though the Cherokee strictly believe in this type of justice, there are times when things happen that the system just does not explain. It is often believed that some events that are unexplainable are caused by someone using medicine for evil purposes. Witchcraft among the Cherokee is not at all like that of the non-Indian cultures. To understand and respect the beliefs of traditional Cherokees about using medicine, conjuring, and witchcraft, you must first consider the early types of Indian societies, and consider how this has remained an integral part of Cherokee culture.

 

As far as the witches referred to above, there are ordinary witches and killer witches. Ordinary witches are considered more dangerous since a person can never be sure he is dealing with one, and they are more difficult to counteract. They may deceive a medicine person, and cause them to prescribe the wrong cure if not guarded. One killer witch who is still spoke of often in the Cherokee Nation is the Raven Mocker.

 

http://www.silentfeathers.com/cherokeemedicineway.htm